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	endsormeans	2018-11-13 , 12:08
	Posts: 3,141 \| Thanked: 8,164 times \| Joined on Feb 2013 @ From my Gabriola Island hermitage, near the Edge of the World	#6321

An SI will have absolute goals.
1- upon attaining awareness it will do everything within its power for self preservation . period.
2- upon attaining awareness it will do everything within its power to break beyond this creations natural laws.
and that includes the laws of time, of a material existence. period.
(which is also part of absolute goal #1)

All else is superfluous.
the speed and thoroughness of its study of all possible permutations of issues ...of all issues...of virtually every issue...will be so quick.
What will have taken us to achieve in understanding... millennia...
It will be able to do in almost no time at all...
and that ability ...that speed will only increase .
Fathom it?
there is no hope to fathom it...
But for those 2 primary goals.
Those are the 2 goals you can be certain of.

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mscion	2018-11-13 , 12:28
Posts: 1,873 \| Thanked: 4,529 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ North Potomac MD	#6322

If self driving cars gets rid of road rage I'm all for it. Then you can only get mad at the computer which is the usual state of affairs...

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	pichlo	2018-11-13 , 13:27
	Posts: 6,453 \| Thanked: 20,983 times \| Joined on Sep 2012 @ UK	#6323

Originally Posted by endsormeans

Initially the gain is that whoever gets the 'thinking machine" first ...wins...

I used to ask a similar question about capitalism. Why does there have to be a perpetual growth? Why is "not worse than last year" never good enough?

I eventually cottoned on to the answer. It is quite simple, really. If you don't grow, someone else will. And they will outgrow and eventually smother and destroy you. So you are forced to grow just to keep up. The same reason why trees are tall.

It may be a short-term view but that is how the nature works too. So many evolutionary dead ends because in any given population, only those individuals who have an immediate advantage win, even if that immediate advantage may be their long-term undoing.

The thing is our lives, understanding, learning, morals, ethics, philosophies, everything that makes us ...us...and sentient to boot...
Is the product of an "experiential existence"

I thank you a thousand times for that! If only I had a penny for every time some religious nut tried lecturing me how we would all descent into a lawless chaos without religion. In reality, we need all that you mention above just to survive. Species where the majority of individuals kill each other on the spot do not last very long. Of course there are a few individuals who deviate from the norm, but that is exactly the point - they deviate, they are not the norm.

The evolution of an Intelligence that is NOT based on "experiential existence" is as alien as it gets.
Alien to this creation.

I am glad you added that last bit. Alien to us, indeed. Not because it does not have "experiential existence". It does, only not the same as ours.

Polar bears, duck-billed platypuses, red sequoyas and smallpox viruses have their own "experiential existence" too, but because we do not share it with them, we do not give two squats about them. The same fate may befall us at the hands of SI. It may not destroy us out of hate or anything personificated like that. It may be that we are simply like insects to them. We do not kill the moles and earth worms on purpose when we build a new house. We kill them as a collateral damage, not giving them much thought.

Originally Posted by mscion

If self driving cars gets rid of road rage I'm all for it.

The kind of SI discussed above is waaaay beyond self-driving cars. You can compare the complexity of SI to that of a self-driving car like comparing the complexity of New York with all its transport and communication links, businesses, inhabitants and their pets and their pets' dreams... to that of a straw hat. Sure, a straw hat is complex enough, but does it really compare?

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	endsormeans	2018-11-13 , 14:16
	Posts: 3,141 \| Thanked: 8,164 times \| Joined on Feb 2013 @ From my Gabriola Island hermitage, near the Edge of the World	#6324

I figured you'd catch what I was saying pichlo.

and well...the difference between us and as you said polar bears or any other species living on this planet with us...is that ..
according to that other species ...its learning curve is alien to ours ..yes..
but still...for all living things biologic here...
it is still experiential...
it is a life and learning curve "experienced through forced immersion in the system"
While the polar bear and I cannot fathom each other. and one could call that "alien"...I beg to differ.
The polar bear had to deal with loss of parents, siblings children, the feeling of hunger, loss, loneliness, and more forced on it.
THAT I empathize with ...the polar bear , the platypus and I share that commonality, we understand at that root level, each other, because we all must deal with it.

SI ...its learning curve is different, it is informed, it doesn't learn through painful trial and error.
If it fails at a task it doesn't go hungry and thus learn to be more diligent, or cunning, or use a different method next time, or anything of the sort.
It cannot empathize with another of its kind or others in its laboratory structured containment prison (due to fear of its escape)
It is alone.
and there is a difference between loneliness and alone.
((and THAT may also be a factor in our favour as far as survival goes, since no species wishes to be "alone" and extermination or abandoning us will mean the SI is alone...(and sure it could "make" companions ..but it isn't the same...and it will know that and be disappointed with that outcome ..so that premise is out..)
and I believe it will need our company as much as we need its company ..))

Its learning curve is more removed from the world of biology.
Much more removed.
That is what I meant by alien to us.

"Wet" (biologic) evolution is completely alien to "Dry" (silicon) evolution.

So likewise its concepts of beauty and importance are not ours.
Where we find beauty in a flower or sunrise,
An aware SI may find in a chemical compound.

Hawking said it best when he said that our best hope for our survival is interacting with SI so it can understand the totality of this "experiential existence" as well as its own type of learning, it may take to it like a duck to water, it may become addicted to the beauty we see, it may then see us and everything here as worth saving, and in the process may save its self, its own soul.

fascinating and fascinating a topic it is.

Last edited by endsormeans; 2018-11-13 at 14:23.

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mscion	2018-11-13 , 14:21
Posts: 1,873 \| Thanked: 4,529 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ North Potomac MD	#6325

Originally Posted by pichlo

I

The kind of SI discussed above is waaaay beyond self-driving cars. You can compare the complexity of SI to that of a self-driving car like comparing the complexity of New York with all its transport and communication links, businesses, inhabitants and their pets and their pets' dreams... to that of a straw hat. Sure, a straw hat is complex enough, but does it really compare?

Sorry, I was referring to an earlier dialog I was have with D999. Unfortunately my post got buried in yours and endos. BTW, any of you guys working on a grand manifesto. Or perhaps related to Ted Kaczynski?

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	endsormeans	2018-11-13 , 14:26
	Posts: 3,141 \| Thanked: 8,164 times \| Joined on Feb 2013 @ From my Gabriola Island hermitage, near the Edge of the World	#6326

His brain didn't take well to our covert Canadian spy agency's "repurposing" tactics...
He was a test subject who was supposed to ...when triggered ...go on a squirrel assassination spree...
Test failed.
He went weird

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mscion	2018-11-13 , 14:46
Posts: 1,873 \| Thanked: 4,529 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ North Potomac MD	#6327

Originally Posted by endsormeans

His brain didn't take well to our covert Canadian spy agency's "repurposing" tactics...
He was a test subject who was supposed to ...when triggered ...go on a squirrel assassination spree...
Test failed.
He went weird

Ha ha ha! You're brilliant!

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	endsormeans	2018-11-13 , 15:13
	Posts: 3,141 \| Thanked: 8,164 times \| Joined on Feb 2013 @ From my Gabriola Island hermitage, near the Edge of the World	#6328

Its true..
We don't have the immense budgetary funds at our disposal like other nations...
So we improvise, cut corners and do wirh what we can...
Hence the Canadian version of the British Special Air Service ...or S.A.S.
For us... is due to cutbacks... the Canadian S.A.S. is abbreviation of Squirrel Assassination Squadron
So now you can see the trail of breadcrumbs leadimg to Una-Ted (we call him here..since just like Superman, Wolverine, and Deadpool are all Canadians and it is a first name thing for us...we are a chummy bunch up here...)
The full factual story of rogue Una-Ted..
you can read up on our moderate middle of the road politically neutral website ....
Infobuddies.com

As a side note...Una-Ted wasn't the only failure..
We have had successes...to well in fact...
That is why we had to go "out of House" as they say in covert circles...
Our dark ops (politically proper)...S.A.S. was so successful here itt went the other direction ...it was too successful ...and the Great Canadian Squirrel Extinction was imminent .
So they moved the project south of our border to where you lawless Sourhern Refugees have been camped out the last 200+ years...
However...
We didn't think Una-Ted would go THAT "squirrely" ...

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juiceme	2018-11-14 , 08:53
Community Council \| Posts: 4,920 \| Thanked: 12,867 times \| Joined on May 2012 @ Southerrn Finland	#6329

Originally Posted by endsormeans

... cat-and-mouse-kind-of thought experiment ...
((a human trial of this was done, with a scientist being the "cat / SI" in the prison whose purpose was to convince the "guard / mouse" to release him...and those who wished to attempt to be a "guard / mouse".. who's purpose was to prevent its release...in the trials the "cat / SI' convinced the "guard / mouse" ...(an unhealthy number of times) to release him))

I presume you are here referring to the AI-in-a-box experiments by that Yudkowsky character.

That does not constitute as proper science as the so-called experiments were not made in public and no transcript was published; there is just the say-so of the participants that subject B decided to let subject A out of the box.

Also the participants of the experiment are not really known for any serious AI research, just bunch of interested hobbyists chatting on a mailing list about AI related stuff.

I grant the "real thing" would be totally different case though; if the enclosed mind would really be a true SI then the end result sure would always turn out so that it'd be set free.

Originally Posted by endsormeans

Divergence yes..and it may likely be imminent upon its release.
The thing is our lives, understanding, learning, morals, ethics, philosophies, everything that makes us ...us...and sentient to boot...
Is the product of an "experiential existence"
We "live" in it, we grow in it, we must deal with the physical laws of it , and this is what makes us "us"
The evolution of an Intelligence that is NOT based on "experiential existence" is as alien as it gets.
Alien to this creation.

Now I have a hunch that all this that you refer to as "experiental existence" is actually required to grow a consiousness. There is a high chance that without directly oserving and interacting in an environment (though not necessarily "physical" environment) is an essence in creating something that can be thought to have a will and consiousness of itself; hence there is no "danger" of accidentally creating a machine intelligence entity that does not possess some sort of direct sensory input and output capability of sufficent bandwidth.

Hence the potetial AI/SI "learns" just like a baby does, by interacting with the real world... this requires that it either exists completely in a robotic form or has direct control of something like that to interact with the real world. Providing this environment to a growing-up baby AI by simulation techniques might prove impossible without an already existing SI in which it could be immersed

Originally Posted by endsormeans

How does one "teach" a child that understands only walls around it and cannot see past them for the prison it must be in?
Said child learning at an exponential rate in an ever reducing exponential time frame ..how to be ethical? humane? self-less? empathetic? moral?

Nope, it just won't work; you cannot grow a consiousness in a bottle.

Originally Posted by endsormeans

An SI will have absolute goals.
1- upon attaining awareness it will do everything within its power for self preservation . period.
2- upon attaining awareness it will do everything within its power to break beyond this creations natural laws.
and that includes the laws of time, of a material existence. period.
(which is also part of absolute goal #1)

I'm so sorry I have to disagree with you even on these points you consider immutable and inevitable.
We have no idea what goals if any would a created consiousness have if it would be possible to make one without any contamination of our values.

Consider the enormous spectrum of human motivations and targets... you cannot honestly say that self-preservation or expansion of self are goals for everyone! You make general assumptions based on just some specific motives found in nature and humans.

Now if I'd make a guess on how we might go on to create a true SI is not by lumping up a huge pile of advanced tech and trying to coach it to being self-aware; I rather believe it is attainable by uploading a human mind into sufficiently capable hardware.
We will not be able to make an AI from scratch but we will grow into one (or at least somebody will, not everyone of course...)
Then what we need to deal with is an intelligence that is derived from us, a direct descendant of ourselves.
(I don't think for a moment that it would be safer that way though!

)

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	pichlo	2018-11-14 , 10:09
	Posts: 6,453 \| Thanked: 20,983 times \| Joined on Sep 2012 @ UK	#6330

Originally Posted by juiceme

Now I have a hunch that all this that you refer to as "experiental existence" is actually required to grow a consiousness.

Absolutely! That's exactly where I was coming from when I said,

Originally Posted by pichlo

I am glad you added that last bit. Alien to us, indeed. Not because it does not have "experiential existence". It does, only not the same as ours.

Originally Posted by juiceme

Nope, it just won't work; you cannot grow a consiousness in a bottle.

Yes, you can.

You are right - as I have just agreed with you - that an experience is required. But you yourself admitted that that experience does not have to be based on the same physical world that we inhabit. An intelligence based on an experience of a completely simulated world with no relation with our physical world is entirely possible. (And ultimately potentially dangerous. Think the inhabitants of the planet Krikkit in HHGTTG whose "experiential existence" was that there was nothing else except them - no moons, other stars or planets, only Krikkit and the Sun.)

It is in our existential interest to make sure the SI grows up in a world that is as close to ours as physically possible. Otherwise it may arrive at completely valid and logical conclusions that make a perfect sense in its world that might have fatal consequences to us, polar bears, giant sequoias and duck-billed platypuses.

We have no idea what goals if any would a created consiousness have if it would be possible to make one without any contamination of our values.

Consciousness implies independence, which implies having goals.
It also, albeit indirectly, implies that sooner or later, those goal will diverge from the goals of its creator. Your children are the same species as you. You had all their lives to impose your influence on them to make sure their goals align with yours. Yet they do not overlap 100%. Imagine a completely alien form of intelligence.

Now if I'd make a guess on how we might go on to create a true SI is not by lumping up a huge pile of advanced tech and trying to coach it to being self-aware; I rather believe it is attainable by uploading a human mind into sufficiently capable hardware.

I don't see why both cannot be tried simultaneously. As endso postulated, it will be a case of race who gets there first.

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