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cyberbillp is offline cyberbillp
2008-06-11 , 12:30
Posts: 58 | Thanked: 9 times | Joined on Feb 2008
#151
The NIT is a laptop you can put in your pocket. Period.

The iphone is a phone that plays music and maybe some games. It has a better browser than most phones, but it's a closed appliance.

So what do you want? A phone or a laptop? They don't compete at all as far as I can see.
 

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Texrat is offline Texrat
2008-06-11 , 12:59
Posts: 11,700 | Thanked: 10,045 times | Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA
#152
Originally Posted by johnkzin View Post
a) as an absolute statement, you've just shown an amazing amount of naivete.
No, John, what I showed was a little facetiousness coating over an objective truth. With over 25 years involvement in the computing industry I'm anything but naive on the subject.

All kidding aside, the point is that Apple's mind share tends to be disproportionate to its market share, as many posters have noted here numerous times. This is not necessarily a bad thing. But if anyone's being naive, it's those who constantly trumpet Apple as superior in general to its competitors based on details that ignore the bigger picture. The argument is ultimately inane, and reminds me of the VHS/Beta tape war. Beta (just like Apple) was the technically superior format, but VHS (just like Microsoft Windows-based products) wound up with the larger market. Apple may indeed get user software better than most, but Microsoft has more eyeballs. That's not said in admiration of their products-- it's just recognizing reality.

It's nice for people to ardently leap to the defense of a company's products () but that passion should certainly be tempered with a 10,000 foot view IMO. But at least you got some Thanks for mistakenly calling me naive.

Originally Posted by johnkzin View Post
As a generalization, which is what I was responding to, I stand by what I said... I think my statement fits just fine for the context that I was replying to.
It looks like you need to re-read what I posted. You got it wrong-- *I* was responding to a generalization.

Context is everything.
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Last edited by Texrat; 2008-06-11 at 13:15.
 
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GeneralAntilles is offline GeneralAntilles
2008-06-11 , 13:04
Posts: 5,478 | Thanked: 5,222 times | Joined on Jan 2006 @ St. Petersburg, FL
#153
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
All kidding aside, the point is that Apple's mind share tends to be disproportionate to its market share, as many posters have noted here numerous times. This is not necessarily a bad thing. But if anyone's being naive, it's those who constantly trumpet Apple as superior in general to its competitors based on details that ignore the bigger picture. The argument is ultimately inane, and reminds me of the VHS/Beta tape war. Beta (just like Apple) was the technically superior format, but VHS (just like Microsoft Windows-based products) wound up with the larger market. Apple may indeed get user software better than most, but Microsoft has more eyeballs. That's not said in admiration of their products-- it's just recognizing reality.
Personally, I think it's very useful here (both because of significant differences between the two and to avoid confusion) to distinguish between Apple's mobile efforts and their computer ones.

Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
It's nice for people to ardently leap to the defense of a company's products () but that passion should certainly be tempered with a 10,000 foot view IMO. But at least you got some Thanks for mistakenly calling me naive.
This stems from, perhaps, a lack of this distinction on the mobile vs computer point. I do believe your arguments relation to Apple's computer stuff have a certain . . . blinder-effect, or tunnel vision to them and really only apply to their mobile stuff. I was close to clicking that "Thanks!" button, too, (as I agreed with the basic sentiments of the post, if not its ardor or extremity) myself, but decided against it.
Last edited by GeneralAntilles; 2008-06-11 at 13:08.
 

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Texrat is offline Texrat
2008-06-11 , 13:06
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#154
Originally Posted by nilchak View Post
so for this basic function I did show that a iPhone works out to be a much more cheaper and effective device. (cost-effective is the operative word here).
No, you actually didn't. Not absolutely.

You showed that the iPhone was more cost-effective in certain scenarios. I am saying that in others it is not-- depending on intended use.

If I want a miniature laptop, the iPhone is not at all cost-effective. The tablet is. Just one counter scenario. It depends.

and I am only loving the iPhone for the cost (not for style or anything else)- I am no rabid Apple fan boy, at least not as much as you are a Nokia NIT fanboy
Nice try, but the paint doesn't stick. Reread my original reply to you-- it was objective. I acknowledged both sides of the argument. I've also stated admiration for the iPhone numerous times here.

And my involvement with the tablets is directly related to my career. Supporting them isn't something as silly as "fanboyism"-- it's just what I've done for a living. Huge difference.
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Last edited by Texrat; 2008-06-11 at 13:09.
 

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Texrat is offline Texrat
2008-06-11 , 13:08
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#155
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
Personally, I think it's very useful here (both because of significant differences between the two and to avoid confusion) to distinguish between Apple's mobile efforts and their computer ones.
I do agree, but I was responding to a general statement about software and using a specific example to illustrate that the point was too broad and ignored larger contexts.

This stems from, perhaps, a lack of this distinction on the mobile vs computer point. I do believe your arguments relation to Apple's computer stuff have a certain . . . blinder-effect, or tunnel vision to them and really only apply to their mobile stuff.
I disagree. When Apple computing products take over the PC market from Windows-based computers, then I'll agree. Until then, the hype continues to outweigh the reality. Again though: not necessarily a bad thing!

Sometimes it's hell being objective here...

EDIT: I do get a kick out of how I make a comment about Apple, and it turns into an argument about me. Come on guys. Make it about the topic, not the person.
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Last edited by Texrat; 2008-06-11 at 13:31.
 
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GeneralAntilles is offline GeneralAntilles
2008-06-11 , 13:51
Posts: 5,478 | Thanked: 5,222 times | Joined on Jan 2006 @ St. Petersburg, FL
#156
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
I disagree. When Apple computing products take over the PC market from Windows-based computers, then I'll agree. Until then, the hype continues to outweigh the reality. Again though: not necessarily a bad thing!
Would you also apply the same metric to Linux? That Windows is really a better product than Linux? The marketshare arguments are particularly bogus when you're dealing with Microsoft as they're convicted monopolists.

The power company is really awesome, too, because they have lots of market share? Or Comcast?

To address the hype, again, the mobile vs computer distinction is important, because the hype you're talking about doesn't exist for the computer side of things.

Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
Sometimes it's hell being objective here...
Nah, sometimes objectivity is subjective.
Last edited by GeneralAntilles; 2008-06-11 at 14:02.
 
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2008-06-11 , 13:58
Posts: 11,700 | Thanked: 10,045 times | Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA
#157
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
Would you also apply the same metric to Linux? That Windows is really a better product than Linux? The marketshare arguments are particularly bogus when you're dealing with Microsoft as they're convicted monopolists.

The power company is really awesome, too, because they have lots of market share? Or Comcast?
GA, you're taking my argument farther than I did or intended to.

I won't defend positions I haven't taken. I hate straw men.

Hint: I never used the word "better" vis-a-vis Windows. The dialog needs a reboot (or maybe just a shut down...)

EDIT: I'll grant you the virtual monopoly. But that only really applied to products in the same ecosystem as Windows, if you recall. Apple's computers have never been subject to Microsoft's dominion-- unless you count the Mac implementation of Office (). I believe that Apple has had every opportunity to grab much more market share than it has, Microsoft's heavyhanded business practices be damned. They have just chosen (or resigned themselves) to taking a select share, and that's fine. But my original point stands-- if it can be found under all the subsequent noise...

You editing fool! Caught you!

the hype you're talking about doesn't exist for the computer side of things.
Um... yes it actually does. Although I agree that Apple took their foot directly off that pedal for the most part years ago and let the fanboys drive it from there...
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Last edited by Texrat; 2008-06-11 at 14:15.
 
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GeneralAntilles is offline GeneralAntilles
2008-06-11 , 14:00
Posts: 5,478 | Thanked: 5,222 times | Joined on Jan 2006 @ St. Petersburg, FL
#158
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
Hint: I never used the word "better" vis-a-vis Windows. The dialog needs a reboot (or maybe just a shut down...)
The whole topic needs a shutdown. Every post in here is useless (mine included).
 

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IcelandDreams is offline IcelandDreams
2008-06-11 , 14:09
Posts: 228 | Thanked: 30 times | Joined on Mar 2008 @ Ontario & Iceland
#159
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
The whole topic needs a shutdown. Every post in here is useless (mine included).
Please and thank you.

I could go on about the delicious pancakes this morning but... that would be off topic.
 
phi is offline phi
2008-06-11 , 14:41
Posts: 428 | Thanked: 54 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ Washington DC
#160
Originally Posted by cyberbillp View Post
The NIT is a laptop you can put in your pocket. Period.

The iphone is a phone that plays music and maybe some games. It has a better browser than most phones, but it's a closed appliance.

So what do you want? A phone or a laptop? They don't compete at all as far as I can see.
I think that with the 3rd party apps out for the iphone, it will not approach the usability of a laptop but it will become a much more versatile tool. A tool that will be capable of doing more than just phone, web browsing, music and games.

All those things that RogerS opines about location based PIM/alerts/social networking will become a reality to the iPhone probably a lot faster than they will withe maemo unfortunately. It also looks like Apple was smart enough to also involve corporations and verticle markets to develop tools for the iPhone too.

Geeks and techies and obviously NIT fans will say that iPhone is a dumb and closed, but at the end of the day, if users and talented developers flock to the platform, we'll all be poorer for it because there wasn't a smart enough company to compete with it. I hope Nokia, HTC or SonyEricsson or someone is paying attention to bring to market something that will crush it or at least compete with it.

Personally, I like the iPhone, but at the same time, I wish I had more options that competed with it. Its user friendly (or dumbed down to some), small, and does a lot of things without filling up my pockets with 2 devices.

I don't know why we're arguing about closed or not, the point is, where is the alternative that compete with it? Its like saying your front door lock is dumbed down and too easy to use. Yes, you have to take your key to someone else to copy it so you can get into your house, but it works. Sure you can fashion your own so you can control every component so you can get into your house 6 different ways but at the end of the day, most people don't get satisfaction from tinkering something to give them their identity/individualism. They just wanna get in their door and get on with their lives.
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