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#141
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
You're kidding, right? You want to hook up the internal 3G modem to a USB port in a device this size? Assuming you could actually fit all that **** in there, say hello to 3-hour battery life.
No, I wasn't kidding. But I was expecting you to to take the directly proportional speculating leap that:

USB 2.0 HSPA dongle IS TO netbook

WHAT

<power-conscience, small-device form factor> HSPA dongle IS TO tablet

Both my phone and my n8x0's have internal removable batteries and internal removable SD cards. Are you telling me one more small replaceable piece of internal hardware would be a big deal? You'd be kidding, right?

It's hooked up to a serial connection (SPI, I think) they released the kernel drivers around September last year.
Thanks for the info. Even better. But let me recap some of what I was trying to say:

hard-wired HSPA device: not modular, kreepy
closed-source binary blob: modular, maybe less kreepy
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#142
Originally Posted by daperl View Post
USB 2.0 HSPA dongle IS TO netbook
Originally Posted by daperl View Post
Both my phone and my n8x0's have internal removable batteries and internal removable SD cards. Are you telling me one more small replaceable piece of internal hardware would be a big deal? You'd be kidding, right?
Neither your battery nor your SD cards are hooked up via USB. Ask the Touchbook people how well WiFi PSM works on their internal USB dongle (hint, not well). Powersaving is not (and probably never will be) as aggressive on a USB peripheral as on a directly connected, soldered-on peripheral, thus, internal USB peripherals == **** battery life.

As far as hooking it up via any other means, modular components cost money and use up space (for an extreme example of how this works, see the BUG). Would you be willing to sacrifice a memory card slot for your modular modem?
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#143
Originally Posted by attila77 View Post
A lot of present day applications (some of which ship with the NIT) already fail in various connectivity scenarios. For example, the IM can't keep it's status between connection changes even if it's life depended on it. Canola also has this nasty habit of disrespecting flight mode. Yes, I know, the canonical answer is that I should have filed a bug report - except I think if more app devs get it wrong than right, IMO it's not an application bug.
Application-awareness is a great topic. I fancy myself better-than-average in the art of multi-threading and asynchronous/synchronous communications. I'm very comfortable thinking about such things. Again, good for me. But as important and difficult as these concepts can be while trying to insure a robust mobile experience, a powerful IDE can hide or abstract them from your average developer.

If the Fremantle API's are any indication, Nokia seems very serious about their future application framework. And once the Maemo 5 devices are in play and some of the dust settles, it would then be a perfect time to place a spectacular IDE on top of the SDK. It'll be a circus; Nokia just needs to execute.

But even then, I still think I'm years away from trading in my vi and an xterm.
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#144
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
Neither your battery nor your SD cards are hooked up via USB. Ask the Touchbook people how well WiFi PSM works on their internal USB dongle (hint, not well). Powersaving is not (and probably never will be) as aggressive on a USB peripheral as on a directly connected, soldered-on peripheral, thus, internal USB peripherals == **** battery life.
As far as computing goes, few things are more important to me than optimization. And I know on some level you feel similarly. I quote you all the time when referring to this subject, "racing to idle." I'm not sure if that's exactly what you say, and I'm guessing the original idea isn't yours, but I give you full credit for presenting it to me that way.

As far as USB goes, maybe the 3.0 spec takes care of your concerns? I don't know? And I'm not sure how much I care at the moment. I used USB for my example because it's modular and some of the cellular companys are offering it to their laptop customers. If it's doing a poor job of power-saving, shame on everyone.

But my opinion still stands: a modular cellular solution for the tablets is doable and practical. And I'm not saying that the trade-offs (if there are any) between modularity and power consumption are to be ignored. But I am speculating that if it's presently an issue, it can quickly become a non-issue with simple innovation.

And don't forget what my uncle Olaph used to say, "First make it work, then make it work better."

As far as hooking it up via any other means, modular components cost money and use up space (for an extreme example of how this works, see the BUG). Would you be willing to sacrifice a memory card slot for your modular modem?
I've already sacrificed a memory card, I'll offer up my keyboard instead.
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#145
Originally Posted by daperl View Post
As far as computing goes, few things are more important to me than optimization. And I know on some level you feel similarly. I quote you all the time when referring to this subject, "racing to idle." I'm not sure if that's exactly what you say, and I'm guessing the original idea isn't yours, but I give you full credit for presenting it to me that way.
No, it's definitely not my idea (I believe igor introduced me to the term, actually), but it's definitely the best way I've heard the concept described.

Originally Posted by daperl View Post
As far as USB goes, maybe the 3.0 spec takes care of your concerns? I don't know?
I wish I knew. Is USB's current poor power saving a technical limitation or simply due to the applications most USB dongles end up in (definitely not attached to power-sipping mobile devices)?

Originally Posted by daperl View Post
But my opinion still stands: a modular cellular solution for the tablets is doable and practical. And I'm not saying that the trade-offs (if there are any) between modularity and power consumption are to be ignored. But I am speculating that if it's presently an issue, it can quickly become a non-issue with simple innovation.
Let's look at it another way. How many people with very modular desktops ever upgrade them (install a new graphics card, CPU, hard drive, whatever)? How many people with modular laptops ever upgrade them (RAM, hard drives, wireless connectivity, whatever)?

I don't have any hard numbers to back this up (other than observing friends, family, and coworkers), but I'd say very few people ever upgrade their computers. They're much more likely to simply purchase new machines.

Accepting that, how much sense do you think it would make for Nokia to make feature(s) like cellular data modular? Not much, I'd say. It's an awful large compromise to ask of the vast majority of users who will never, ever take advantage that modularity.

Originally Posted by daperl View Post
I've already sacrificed a memory card, I'll offer up my keyboard instead.
Let's propose something else. What if, instead of a costly (to the customer) modular option Nokia offered several different devices for the Maemo platform. Each with a different set of options, some lower-end, some higher (much like Nokia's current cellular phone lineup).

That way, you could pick the device that suits you (say, the lower-end $250 tablet without 3G, accelerometers, FM RX/TX, GPS, or a hardware keyboard etc.) and somebody else could pick the device that suits them ($600, all the fixin's, hardware keyboard, etc.) and you're both happy without having to deal with the modularity compromise (which is a big one to swallow on mobile devices).
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#146
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
...other than observing friends, family, and coworkers), but I'd say very few people ever upgrade their computers. They're much more likely to simply purchase new machines.

Accepting that, how much sense do you think it would make for Nokia to make feature(s) like cellular data modular? Not much, I'd say. It's an awful large compromise to ask of the vast majority of users who will never, ever take advantage that modularity.
I have nothing to say about family, friends and upgrading. If I tried, my head would come off.

I seem to have too much to say about everything else, but I'll try to keep that from happening and instead I'll just make these strange random remarks.

If I had cellular technology tightly coupled with a primary computing device, my feeling would be that I would have a sub-optimal joining of 2 different industries. My opinion is that the computing industry and the communications industry should be loosely coupled at best. Especially in my hardware. <an oldy but a goody Nokia example>How would you like to be an n810 WiMAX owner with the equivalent of a dead rat inside?</an oldy but a goody Nokia example>

I own my cell phone outright, but because of its tight coupling with my service provider, it seems like a leased device, no different than my DVR and my cable modem. I don't think twice about this; they serve their purposes just fine.

And lastly, modular would put the mobile back in mobile.

Let's propose something else. What if, instead of a costly (to the customer) modular option Nokia offered several different devices for the Maemo platform. Each with a different set of options, some lower-end, some higher (much like Nokia's current cellular phone lineup).

That way, you could pick the device that suits you (say, the lower-end $250 tablet without 3G, accelerometers, FM RX/TX, GPS, or a hardware keyboard etc.) and somebody else could pick the device that suits them ($600, all the fixin's, hardware keyboard, etc.) and you're both happy without having to deal with the modularity compromise (which is a big one to swallow on mobile devices).
Well, sure. Sounds like car shopping. But I must warn you, 2 of my last 4 auto purchases were made-to-order directly from the manufacturer. I got exactly what I wanted. I'm guessing your talking about something a little less personal.
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#147
By the way, I wholeheartedly do agree with texrat how remarkable i saw the 770 at the time. It was a one of a kind device. I still like it more than any of the devices that have come out since.
 

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#148
Forgot to comment on the above that I am pretty darn excited about the next launch though.
 
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#149
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
It saddens me that Nokia *seems* to be moving away from elements that made the tablets distinct and toward homogenization that would make them more or less like anyone else's offerings.

Nokia had a chance to create and seize a new market, and fumbled the ball... despite the evangelism of many inside the company in favor of pushing the tablets hard.

It later became extremely frustrating for me due to a singular event...

...In no time I was developing a web-based mobile auditing app with the tablets in mind. Unfortunately, VPN was not officially supported. A colleague in Finland cobbled up a rough gui vpn tool for internal use only and before long I had a working alpha of my vision: a means of freeing our product and delivery auditors to enter defects as they found them instead of trotting back to a desktop PC. My manager was ecstatic. This was working smart!

I blogged (internally) and emailed about the experience and pushed for an enterprise project to incorporate the 770 into our operations...
My (admittedly limited) knowledge of what Maemo SW is trying to do with Maemo 5 suggests that Maemo continues to push closer to an OS on which this kind of application can be developed easily and without hacking, rather than farther away...

I suspect that Nokia's going to put a glossy skin over Fremantle that will appeal to the iPhone / Symbian crowd, but, just under that glossy, 3D surface, it's all standard Linux components. You want to run a standard LAMP stack on your new Maemo handheld? I'm sure it will be straightforward to get it working quickly and without a hassle. I bet we'll see OpenOffice and Quake 3 running on the Fremantle devices within weeks of them being released.

Unlike some gloaters around here, I don't have a Fremantle Device to fondle, but I suspect the same philosophy that's being applied to the software is being applied to the hardware. Make the threshold for the iPhone crowd low enough to get mainstream consumers to consider buying it, but, wherever possible, don't hobble the functionality for the geek crowd that makes up the bulk of the current maemo.org community.

It seems to me that the Maemo team understands the fine line they have to walk here: appeal to a larger audience, but don't alienate your current users. I really think we should trust that they're thinking of us, too, when they make design decisions. Yes, there's going to be tension; they're being pulled in many directions. There are many stakeholders, and not all of them understand what's going on. And yes, there's lots of money involved. More money, I think, than ever before.

This whole program is a huge risk for a big, old corporation, and there are probably a lot of powerful men in suits wearing big frowns every time they look in the direction of the Maemo offices. They're hoping this will all fail, and if it does, they plan to be wearing smug smiles and saying "I told you so; this open source stuff is nonsense," as they tear down the whole department. They rubbed their hands together gleefully when the WiMax thing fell apart, and they're probably working quietly even now, trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt about this project throughout the ranks of Nokia management. "This really isn't the economic climate to be making these kinds of risky experiments," they're whispering, "We should be focusing our limited resources on strategies that we know work, not crazy, unproven schemes..."

Meanwhile, the tablet community is getting increasingly restless. We're frustrated by the lack of communication we're getting from Nokia, we're frustrated at the long gaps between hardware refreshes, we're used to open source projects that are run by hackers out of their basements, not by international corporations entangled by complex webs of contracts and obligations, and we don't understand what's taking them so long and why they're holding their cards so close to their chests. Just GPL it and give it to us!

There are many of us who are also worried about what we saw in the movement from the N800 to the N810. We saw compromises being made, and we didn't like the compromises. We worry that we're going to see more of those compromises being made in coming generations, and, you know what? We're probably right. There's going to be compromises, and I'm sure many of us are going to be a bit disappointed in the position of the d-pad, layout of the keyboard, the options for removable storage, etc, etc...

But we have to remember that there's two sides to every line, and you can fall off a tightrope in either direction. I sincerely believe that the Nokia Maemo team values the existing community a great deal, and I believe that they're fighting the good fight for us inside the belly of the beast. But they can't give us everything we want. I'm sure they'll give us as much as they can, without getting sucked down the throat of the whirlpool. (or are we Scylla?)

The simple fact of the times is that Nokia needs to get the Fremantle devices noticed by Engadget and its ilk, and it needs to attract some consumer interest in these little handheld computers that it is making. The Maemo devices (up 'till now, known as the Internet Tablets) have always been paradigm-shifting, revolutionary things. They're so revolutionary, that ~4 years later, they still don't fit into any of the existing categories (except their own).

Nokia really needs that glossy surface to push the Maemo devices into the limelight so that the world can really see just how revolutionary they are. They need to be friendly and usable enough for the people who don't have the patience with the current tablets' shortcomings that we geeks have.

And, frankly, I think we need it too.

And if you want the Ultra-Geeky, developed-in-a-basement, designed by the community for the community, open source device, there's always the Pandora. Which I really hope doesn't ship first.
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Last edited by qole; 2009-04-26 at 07:53. Reason: fixed typos
 

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#150
Thanks qole, great writing!
 
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