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titan is offline titan
2009-11-17 , 11:58
Posts: 946 | Thanked: 1,650 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Germany
#51
Originally Posted by cb474 View Post
It's a little perplexing that features would be left out that have become common place on N series cameras. I can't think of a reason other than that perhaps Nokia really is rushing the N900 out the door.
the features you've listed are all software features - so they could be added using a firmware upgrade or by a community camera app.
 

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sinetype is offline sinetype
2009-11-17 , 12:12
Posts: 59 | Thanked: 10 times | Joined on Sep 2009 @ Portugal
#52
I also think it's a software issue but i'm a little worried about it.

Yesterday i thought on something else: Every mobile phone with MMS is able to record in low resolution (to be able to send it).
With the features available in the N900 in camera mode, the MMS function seems to be really far away since you will need to create links between the camera and the message feature so when adding a multimedia element to you SMS, the phone will be pre configured to create 30sec clips in low resolution (under 300k) and pictures in VGA mode.

I know nothing about software (i am a director) but what do you say?
Last edited by sinetype; 2009-11-17 at 12:15.
 
attila77 is offline attila77
2009-11-17 , 12:47
Posts: 3,319 | Thanked: 5,610 times | Joined on Aug 2008 @ Finland
#53
Originally Posted by cb474 View Post
So it seems the N900 camera is not really comparable to the N97 as has been assumed (including by myself) in some posts earlier in this thread. It's a little perplexing that features would be left out that have become common place on N series cameras. I can't think of a reason other than that perhaps Nokia really is rushing the N900 out the door.
There is a common problem here - non-tech folks compare on what they are used to compare in the past - a smartphone either has or it hasn't got the functionality of another. Maemo devices (and the N900 is no exception) do not fit this mould. Think what would you say if this was a netbook ? 'the built in webcam application has no timer and no settable contrast, etc'. Most people would say, big deal, I'm doing to install a different webcam application that works the way I want it to. And that's exactly the freedom Maemo gives you. It (almost) doesn't matter what the camera application (cannot) do as long as it has it's source or API available and the hardware is actually capable of the required operations.
 

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cb474 is offline cb474
2009-11-17 , 13:29
Posts: 203 | Thanked: 68 times | Joined on Oct 2009
#54
Originally Posted by titan View Post
the features you've listed are all software features - so they could be added using a firmware upgrade or by a community camera app.
Yeah, they could be added, but I'm not going to count on it. Things do not always play out that way, by a long shot. And I still think it's odd for Nokia to leave these features out, given that they've developed them for many previous N series devices. It's not like some new thing that Nokia doesn't know how to do.

Originally Posted by attila77
There is a common problem here - non-tech folks compare on what they are used to compare in the past - a smartphone either has or it hasn't got the functionality of another. Maemo devices (and the N900 is no exception) do not fit this mould. Think what would you say if this was a netbook ? 'the built in webcam application has no timer and no settable contrast, etc'. Most people would say, big deal, I'm doing to install a different webcam application that works the way I want it to. And that's exactly the freedom Maemo gives you. It (almost) doesn't matter what the camera application (cannot) do as long as it has it's source or API available and the hardware is actually capable of the required operations.
Again, I'm not going to get a N900 counting on the idea that someone will create a different camera application that does what I want it do. Maybe they will and that's definitely something that's great about Maemo. But if the application doesn't already exist, so I know I can get it from a third party, then I don't think it's reasonable to count on it. And to me, it still seems like for a $600 device, Nokia ought to be able to provide a camera application that at least does what other recent N series devices do. What's the point in having the N900 camera application be a regression from the N97 camera application (as well as many devices before that)? Nokia knows how to do this.

As a somewhat exaggerated example, Nokia could have just not included a phone application at all. And then people could say, well there's a cellular radio built in, so someone will create one. I would not find that reassuring.

Maybe anything can be written and provided for the N900 after the fact. But I think it's reasonable to judge it by the out of the box features it has. I expect certain basic things to be there right away. I'm not just buying a computer without an OS, to configure however I want. For a $600 phone, the camera application could at least be on a par with other recent Nokia camera applications. Nokia has demonstrated this is one area that it's particularly good at with phones. What's the benefit in Nokia withholding its expertise in this area?

To me Nokia either did this because they're rushing the device out the door or because they're trying to create some sort of differentiation from other N series devices (although I find this second reason not to make much sense--differentiate from the N86, sure, but from the N97?).
Last edited by cb474; 2009-11-17 at 13:32.
 
titan is offline titan
2009-11-17 , 13:42
Posts: 946 | Thanked: 1,650 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Germany
#55
Originally Posted by cb474 View Post
Yeah, they could be added, but I'm not going to count on it. Things do not always play out that way, by a long shot. And I still think it's odd for Nokia to leave these features out, given that they've developed them for many previous N series devices. It's not like some new thing that Nokia doesn't know how to do.
I'm going to count on it. You can find several threads here with people already discussing
how to implement DSLR style camera control and computational photography..
TI offers API documentation for the camera module, so we should be able to hack it.

I agree that Nokia should have those features on a established platform
but AFAIK it's the first Maemo device with a camera.
With the N910/N920 at the latest they're supposed to offer all those features.
For the release date Nokia should focus on getting the basic functionality working properly. Extra software features may be added later.

I'm going to buy the N900 for the potential of an open platform,
not for the built-in features of a pre-release device.
 

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Flandry is offline Flandry
2009-11-17 , 13:58
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#56
The argument that other N-series devices had the features, so they should be found in the N900, are understandable but not really reasonable. Other N-series devices have used a different operating system, so there's really no common ground. The good news is that each new Maemo device that comes out will be able to benefit from an additional evolution/iteration of the supporting software, much like the Symbian(?) N-series devices have. Remember that this is the first smartphone-like N-series device. Being a mostly open system will only accelerate the accretion of good support software for each new hardware product.
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attila77 is offline attila77
2009-11-17 , 14:02
Posts: 3,319 | Thanked: 5,610 times | Joined on Aug 2008 @ Finland
#57
Originally Posted by cb474 View Post
Yeah, they could be added, but I'm not going to count on it. Things do not always play out that way, by a long shot. And I still think it's odd for Nokia to leave these features out, given that they've developed them for many previous N series devices. It's not like some new thing that Nokia doesn't know how to do.
Maemo is not Symbian. This is the same 'mistake' people make with MMS, portrait mode, T9, etc. The things that were written for Symbian (before Qt) can't just be copypasted into Maemo. The APIs of the two are so different that you need to rewrite those features (which Symbian also didn't gain in a single release) from scratch.

And as for counting what is and isn't included in the box - you certainly can view things that way, but it's neglecting one of (if not *the*) strongest aspect of Maemo.
 

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cb474 is offline cb474
2009-11-17 , 14:24
Posts: 203 | Thanked: 68 times | Joined on Oct 2009
#58
Originally Posted by titan View Post
I'm going to buy the N900 for the potential of an open platform, not for the built-in features of a pre-release device.
If I buy the N900, I would buy it for both. I mean, why include any features at all, if it's just about the platform and the applications that will come later? I think the camera is pretty basic and they could have done more, from what I've read.

Originally Posted by Flandry
The argument that other N-series devices had the features, so they should be found in the N900, are understandable but not really reasonable. Other N-series devices have used a different operating system, so there's really no common ground.
Originally Posted by attila77
Maemo is not Symbian. This is the same 'mistake' people make with MMS, portrait mode, T9, etc. The things that were written for Symbian (before Qt) can't just be copypasted into Maemo.
Okay, I absolutely never said that programs could just by copy and pasted. I know what Maemo is, alright. It's a big part of what I like about the N900. But what I said in my post is that Nokia knows how to do camera applications. The common ground is Nokia and the N series. It's knowing how to do the design that counts, far more than having to rewrite it for another OS. Nokia knows what features people like and have come to expect in an N series device. And being one of the the best camera's you can get in a phone is one of those things. It's not rocket science, because Nokia's already figured out the design questions.

In fact, if it's such a big deal to develop the same features for Maemo as were already in Symbian, then why did Nokia include so much and leave a few things out? It makes no sense for Nokia to decide to put a lot of work into a camera application, but leave it a little incomplete, because maybe the community will fix it for them later. And in the end, if Maemo is such a break from Symbian, then why call it an N series phone? Why deliberately provoke all the expectations that come with that? Why not make up some new series name?

It seems to me, that if people want to maintain that not having more than two resolutions available for images and no self-timer nor contrast controls, has come to pass for the N900, because it's Maemo and not Symbian, then people have to give a reason why these things were deliberately left out. Otherwise, they were left out simply because Nokia didn't get around to it. And for $600 and a phone that Nokia wants to call an N series phone, that's a little shoddy.
 
cb474 is offline cb474
2009-11-17 , 14:32
Posts: 203 | Thanked: 68 times | Joined on Oct 2009
#59
By the way, this is also supposed to be a thread about the camera in the N86 vs in the N900. So I was just providing some information from a review about features that the N900 lacks, that people might be used to seeing in other Nokia N series phones. That seems like relevant information, regardless of what the justification/excuse there is for this state of affairs. When someone actually produces a functioning alternative camera application for the N900, then that will be relevant too. Until then, people might want to know what they're going to get.
 
attila77 is offline attila77
2009-11-17 , 14:52
Posts: 3,319 | Thanked: 5,610 times | Joined on Aug 2008 @ Finland
#60
@cb474: The Nseries question is a different one. It was a corporate call - the first Maemo device (the 770) wasn't an Nseries. I mean, if you find the N900 lacking in terms of Nseries 'standard features', the N800 is.. well... what ?
 
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