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ossipena is offline ossipena
2010-01-11 , 11:50
Posts: 3,159 | Thanked: 2,023 times | Joined on Feb 2008 @ Finland
#11
Originally Posted by meep View Post
I'm not complaining so much as trying to understand the processes involved.

IMO, the bug identified => identified fix => release process is not as quick as the equivalent process on debian / ubuntu. Arguably the fact that the phone has only been out 2 months means that this update process should be quicker than at a later stage in the product's lifespan, to capitalise on initial interest in the n900.

I would agree with the idea of allowing for a beta repo; whilst I can understand that Nokia may want to protect users from shafting their handset, this process works well for all other Linux distros without too much of this problem, as well as MS with Win 7 betas etc. If they can do it, why can't Nokia?
actually nokia has been generous to maemo community: the major update has allready been given to selected people (active in bugzilla) for testing unlike before. so at least the direction seems to be right for your suggestion.
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NvyUs is offline NvyUs
2010-01-11 , 11:52
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#12
peter makes quite clear here don't read into the week number as thats just the build took and built upon and fine tuned not the week the firmware was ready or completed.
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=16
 

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pycage is offline pycage
2010-01-11 , 11:54
Posts: 3,404 | Thanked: 4,474 times | Joined on Oct 2005 @ Germany
#13
The week number specifies the base build of the firmware. Minor modification still take place after that. 44 just means that they took the build from week 44 (as it proved stable during internal testing) and then apply some more modifications. Not every part of the update is this old.
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meep is offline meep
2010-01-11 , 11:54
Posts: 94 | Thanked: 10 times | Joined on Jan 2010
#14
Originally Posted by ossipena View Post
actually nokia has been generous to maemo community: the major update has allready been given to selected people (active in bugzilla) for testing unlike before. so at least the direction seems to be right for your suggestion.
Maybe if there's a compelling reason to not do public betas it would be good to have a recruitment drive in this area, as more testers = more robust integration / quicker testing turnaround.

I'll look into what I need to do to join up

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chainreaction is offline chainreaction
2010-01-11 , 12:02
Posts: 162 | Thanked: 79 times | Joined on Jan 2010 @ Finland
#15
Originally Posted by ossipena View Post
who told and what? aliens? sources please or it doesn't exist.

and release fw is 42-11 that implies to week 42. device was released @week 48. so 6 weeks old firmware? (answer:no, you're just speculating)
Yeah, you are true. There does not exist any real information behind that, but still the rumour goes on. There was one image iirc from maemo summit that implied that some kind of an update/feature to web browser would/could/might come. I think that has started the rumours to be honest. The "update before christmas" has just built much ground here even though there seems not to be any real information behind that fact. Yeah I'm pretty much speculating that 42-11 stands for week 42 or something like that. I don't have the slightest idea how the version numbering goes. But a layman can easily get that idea if one does not have any knowledge. The idea was to show that some people might think it that way that we have been waiting for "ages" and stuff like knowing that the update is named "51-something" just happens to accidentally feed these rumours more.
Last edited by chainreaction; 2010-01-11 at 12:09.
 
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omeriko9 is offline omeriko9
2010-01-11 , 12:09
Posts: 385 | Thanked: 344 times | Joined on Jan 2010 @ Israel
#16
Originally Posted by ossipena View Post
you're on your own then with untested fast updates, should you join nokias testing ring?
I didn't say "untested". Updates should be tested, as any piece of software published to market, according to industry standards for software development lifetime cycles.
And Nokia is no different from any other large software company in that sense.

I don't know what is Nokia's "testing ring" but if there is one, me, personally, would like to join it.

I'm mainly talking about the common average consumer, which buys this phone, learns about it's software defects, and waits for a (tested ) update/s for long time, just to find out that the recently released update is merely a infrastructure fix to ease the applying of PR 1.1...
 
meep is offline meep
2010-01-11 , 12:09
Posts: 94 | Thanked: 10 times | Joined on Jan 2010
#17
I can understand the frustration of these rumours of "the Christmas update" etc. but can see why they've materialised - it seems no expectations are set by Nokia for when anything will arise.

The stock answer to "why not?" on this front seems to be that Nokia never give release dates.

Again, it seems to be something that others manage but Nokia do not. I don't accept that you can't communicate a date for bugfixes and updates, IMO not being able to to me shows certain gaps in how these releases are being managed.

Please do tell me if there is a compelling reason not to communicate dates or set n900 owners expectation on this.
 
jjx is offline jjx
2010-01-11 , 12:12
Posts: 474 | Thanked: 283 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Oxford, UK
#18
Originally Posted by NvyUs View Post
major update will follow shortly.
How do you know? Last word was "March at the latest". Anything earlier is speculation.

Originally Posted by NvyUs View Post
i don't understand what ppl are complaining about is everyone just born without patience these days
If someone bought a device for £500 and it has serious bugs, especially if they feel they can't use something they paid that much for, it's understandable that people want fixes soon after they are written and tested, not months after they are written because of a opaque company's methodology.

It's not unreasonable to complain if the delays are arbitrary, and to make positive suggestions if the delays are unnecessary.

That's the point of asking - are the delays arbitrary or unnecessary. What is the process going on? Can it be improved using experience of Linux distro communities?

The issue under scrutiny here isn't the time for these processes. Anyne working in this kind of field knows these things take as long as they do. If it's frustrating to some people, tough.

The issue is "what's the process - what's happening?" and "is there a better way?"

All the people who hope for their entire wishlist of fantasy features to be delivered yesterday can keep on waiting, of course
 
slender is offline slender
2010-01-11 , 12:16
Posts: 2,829 | Thanked: 1,459 times | Joined on Dec 2009 @ Finland
#19
Originally Posted by NvyUs View Post
the device as been out less than 2 months and got a minor update today and major update will follow shortly.
i don't understand what ppl are complaining about
is everyone just born without patience these days
Entering to the market with buggy and incomplete functions that have been around on rivaliers product for quite long I would say that people are pretty patience right now. I would have gone really mad if i had bought this device for 550€ or maybe I would have given it about 1 week to get updates and after that changed it to other device. People do not have time to "get this" maemo/community idea they are too busy at doing their work and making money for their company and shareholders.

I think that it's really twisted that there is people who forgive incomplitness on many areas because of e.g. multi-tasking and potential. I think that these kind of people have no slightes idea how you should make business todays fast paced markets and they live in dream world. A bit harsh to say, but that's just what i feel. :|

Fact is that when you come to market a bit late you do not anymore have time to make things better. Customers want functionality and working end product NOW! That's in my opinion really healthy progerss todays market.
 
jjx is offline jjx
2010-01-11 , 12:22
Posts: 474 | Thanked: 283 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Oxford, UK
#20
Originally Posted by meep View Post
I don't accept that you can't communicate a date for bugfixes and updates,
It is not possible to set dates for bug fixes until the cause of the bug has been found and a solution devised. With nastier bugs no timescale at all can be set at first, because nobody knows why it happens or even if a fix is possible.

When a fix is found, it must be confirmed by testing, review, etc. otherwise it is not known to be a fix.

When all that's done, only then, can a release timescale be set.

Originally Posted by meep View Post
Please do tell me if there is a compelling reason not to communicate dates or set n900 owners expectation on this.
In general, there are two options, both with pros and cons:

1. Set goals, and be unable to say (reliably) how long it will take, only give estimates and ranges. This seems to be Nokia's way so far with the N900. (It is also my way when working )

2. Set times for releases, and be unable to say what will be included, only give estimates and have unreliable intentions. This is called timeboxing. It can encourage regular output, but the downside is people getting expectations about what will be included and being disappointed.
 

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