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johnel is offline johnel
2010-03-03 , 13:27
Posts: 999 | Thanked: 1,117 times | Joined on Dec 2009 @ earth?
#11
Originally Posted by Matan View Post
This is either a lie or said out of ignorance.

The devices (770, N800, N810, N900) are closed - a lot of their functionality depends on closed drivers (kernel or user space) from Nokia, so only Nokia can port meego (or any other OS) to those devices, but they already indicated they do not intend to do it. You can still hope that they give you the necessary information, either by documentation of the hardware they use or by opening their code, but there is no real reason to expect it to happen.
So is the Mer project a waste of time?

I would imagine it will be possible to port it to older devices too - 770, n800 & n810 as well as the n900.
I don't think this is a lie - it's just my humble opinion.

I am fully aware that there are closed-source aspects to this devices. e.g. gps & phone functionality.

However, that does not mean it will never happen. The MeeGo "stack" is open-source and the licensing terms allow the option to include proprietory drivers.

Maybe Nokia might change thier mind - who knows.

Personally I hate proprietory drivers but unfortunately they do exist.
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qgil is offline qgil
2010-03-03 , 14:11
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#12
Originally Posted by johnel View Post
Linux is doing ok!

When MeeGo is ready Linux will be doing just fine on mobiles too.


I think your argument is weak.
MeeGo is a project of the Linux Foundation so please explain further your argument.
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qgil is offline qgil
2010-03-03 , 15:04
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#13
Originally Posted by livefreeordie View Post
That's nice and I (we?) appreciate your efforts, but please also try to get them to actually open source their drivers. That's the ultimate solution I'm sure most of us are hoping for.
Nokia tries *a lot*. Ask hardware vendors.

There is a good discussion about this somewhere in this thread...

Basically, Nokia puts considerable effort pushing hardware vendors in that direction. Open source drivers play well with the Nokia chipset strategy and with Linux development. But of course these companies need to make business, so asking them to open their IPR without suggesting any alternative is not the best approach.

MeeGo, with Intel as initial founder (a company with good track offering open drivers), is one of the biggest and most concrete public actions Nokia could push in that direction.
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johnel is offline johnel
2010-03-03 , 15:26
Posts: 999 | Thanked: 1,117 times | Joined on Dec 2009 @ earth?
#14
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
MeeGo is a project of the Linux Foundation so please explain further your argument.
I'll explain this further:

The reason that Nokia have to keep moving through OSes is that the hardware for these devices is moving forwards at such a rate. It is not like the desktop market where a 3 year old machine is still pretty capable. A three year old smart phone is like a chocolate teapot (cue barrage of abuse from N770 owners).

You can't keep the OS fresh and taking advantage of new hardware while keeping backwards compatibility. And if you did you'd only end up in a mess as apps would have to be compiled for different architectures and specifications.
The Linux kernel supports enormous amounts of hardware devices (e.g mass storage, usb devices) and CPU architectures (e.g. x86, ARM). The installation of the kernel and it's modules can be as small or as large as you want them to be.

For example I used to have a custom install of Slackware(current) on my laptop. It includes kernel version 2.6.33. Great kernel but the wireless driver breaks on my hardware. I replaced the kernel with an older version - 2.29.6 worked perfectly. The rest of the software still runs fine with the older kernel. I did not need to re-compile anything. E.g. Firefox, Openoffice and cd/dvd burning was fine.

I also installed all this on another laptop (much older)- but could use the latest kernel (2.6.33) and everything was still ok (the older kernel worked too). Both laptops were x86-based but were completely different specifications.

This older laptop could not use compiz special effects so I had to switch them off but the installed applications still ran fine.

I see no reason why MeeGo can do the same thing with older Nokia devices. If we talk about hardware abstraction then different kernel configurations would be needed but the higher-level stuff like user applications should stay the same.

Imagine if MeeGo was available for the n900 and n800.
The n900 is capable of making phone calls the n800 cannot do that. The only difference should be the driver. The rest of the software should still be the same.

However if we consider the n770, n8x00 & n900 in the same "family" then MeeGo can unify these devices together. Just because a device is older does not always mean "less-capable". Pre-n900 devices support OTG usb and use larger screens.

I know that mobile devices vary wildly compared to PC-type systems but I think many of the principles are the same.

As long as Nokia, Intel and other companies adhere to the MeeGo "standards" then cross-platform and older devices can benefit from this.
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livefreeordie is offline livefreeordie
2010-03-03 , 16:27
Posts: 262 | Thanked: 232 times | Joined on Aug 2009
#15
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
Nokia tries *a lot*. Ask hardware vendors.
I wasn't trying to imply you don't. I really do appreciate your (previous) efforts, like I said. You just sounded like you'd given up on certain vendors. Maybe Intel could threaten to make an SoC that obsoletes their solution
 
Matan is offline Matan
2010-03-03 , 16:36
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#16
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
Nokia tries *a lot*. Ask hardware vendors.
Which hardware vendor prevents you from telling us to what the retu/tahvo ADCs and GPIOs connect on the 770/N800/N810?

Who makes the phone and the GPS chips in the N900? Maybe we can go and ask them for the specs?

Why not choose a chip with free drivers, when there are so many available, instead of selecting one without free drivers and then trying "a lot" to convince the vendor to open it?
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No more Nokia devices for me.
 

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javispedro is offline javispedro
2010-03-03 , 16:44
Posts: 2,355 | Thanked: 5,249 times | Joined on Jan 2009 @ Barcelona
#17
Originally Posted by johnel View Post
I see no reason why MeeGo can do the same thing with older Nokia devices. If we talk about hardware abstraction then different kernel configurations would be needed but the higher-level stuff like user applications should stay the same..
See any Java midlet and you'll see what this is not as easy as you make it sound.
 
livefreeordie is offline livefreeordie
2010-03-03 , 16:51
Posts: 262 | Thanked: 232 times | Joined on Aug 2009
#18
Originally Posted by Matan View Post
Why not choose a chip with free drivers, when there are so many available, instead of selecting one without free drivers and then trying "a lot" to convince the vendor to open it?
Maybe the closed vendor is just so much cheaper that Nokia can't afford to look elsewhere? On the other hand, their scale gives them significant leverage.
 
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GeneralAntilles is offline GeneralAntilles
2010-03-03 , 18:47
Posts: 5,478 | Thanked: 5,222 times | Joined on Jan 2006 @ St. Petersburg, FL
#19
Originally Posted by cashclientel View Post
The reason that Nokia have to keep moving through OSes is that the hardware for these devices is moving forwards at such a rate. It is not like the desktop market where a 3 year old machine is still pretty capable. A three year old smart phone is like a chocolate teapot (cue barrage of abuse from N770 owners).
An argument that's certainly valid for big generational transitions like from 770 to N800 or N810 to N900. It's not, unfortunately, valid for the marketing and business-based reasoning that seems to be behind Harmattan support on the N900. There have been no valid technical arguments presented, and at least one invalid one that I've heard directly from the mouth of a top Nokia executive (capacitive).
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buurmas is offline buurmas
2010-03-03 , 19:51
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#20
Originally Posted by Naranek View Post
The whining is really getting old guys.
Hey, please don't misread my intentions -- I was trying to ask honest questions and start a rational discussion b/c I care about MeeGo. But I understand many of us on this forum have rant fatigue these days.

Originally Posted by johnel View Post
MeeGo is open-source.
Of course, but sometimes the devil is in the details... I've watched the Diablo community SSU discussions and the Mer discussions pretty closely. Nokia does cooperate substantially with the community (which is great!), but not always as much as we would like. There are sometimes roadblocks. The good news is that I think that Nokia is really learning how to work with the community and give them the tools they need to extend the lifetimes of their devices and I think MeeGo reflects this. And that's really good news!

Originally Posted by qgil View Post
* No matter how many UX changes vendors do, they need to provide the official MeeGo API if they want to call their product a MeeGo device.
* I bet the MeeGo build infrastructure (OBS) will minimize the rpm/deb hassle for developers.
So, for example, MeeGo applications developed for Harmattan should be effortlessly available on other MeeGo devices and vice versa -- maybe just a compile away? If so, that really sounds great.
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