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ndi's Avatar
ndi is offline ndi
2010-06-13 , 17:03
Posts: 2,050 | Thanked: 1,425 times | Joined on Dec 2009 @ Bucharest
#211
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
[...] Singling out individuals generates defensiveness-- from the individual but also from anyone agreeing with him/her. Going after the behavior in general fashion really does mitigate that.
Agreed, and some mitigation can be done, for example the one warning and you're out system almost always gets another thread open with a defensive user complaining, ranging from "I'm sorry, I have <problem>" to "Mods are dolts".

However, a ease-in system, like karma in some forums, kudos, etc, doesn't generate loads of pressure in return, especially if those karma points are precious and the warnings are temporary.

I like the thanks system this far, but what limits it is
(one) it doesn't have a reverse, so it just goes up if you insist,
(two) it stays, if nobody moves the thread to off-topic, so the flame wars are quite the place to get inter-troll thanks,
(three) it's free, and free stuff gets thrown around and finally
(four) some people are way, way above others, for example an announce software post/thread, a piece of news, joke, racks in a 30-to-one ratio, effectively buying 60+ trolls before ratio drops. There is no rule to say a developer can't be an ... well, you know.

If this system had a limit of no more than 3 thanks a day per user (maybe more with posts), it would be more precious (I have suggested this for bugzilla). Also, if infractions would be temporary suspension then the matter need not be definitely resolved. Just wait it out, for someone who gets one per week there's no loss.
However, a pro troller would eat up through his reserves in a day (especially with exponential rates), reverting to a 0% karma, conveniently helping me ignore said views.

For example, on some sites that have nothing to do with torrents, there are comments on pages that are not torrents of any kind. Let's assume that one sees a page with a comment that says "This page that Ndi has no intention of downloading contains a virus!!! (Karma: -2)" and another that says "This page that has nothing illegal on it is fine (Karma: +254)". See how easy it is to get decent info on completely empty pages?

But, this is about closed threads, not policing methods, so I'm retiring. Additionally, I very much doubt anyone will change a working system, especially one integrated with other services.

Oh, one more thing. You said that this generates defensiveness from people agreeing with modded post. This is why the system never works unless it's backed by clear rules. No OT means no OT, there is no disagreeing. If rules say ranting is OK, then ranting passes. This doesn't work for -say- poor taste.
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Texrat's Avatar
Texrat is offline Texrat
2010-06-13 , 17:08
Posts: 11,700 | Thanked: 10,045 times | Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA
#212
Originally Posted by Joorin View Post
Knowing that you can vote someone off the forum, bad English isn't the main point up for evaluation. In my experience, behaviour is evaluated and this is all in line with Texrat's view on things (unless I've totally misunderstood something).
I suspect you'll always see a percentage of even regular members who will vote against another member with petty motives but they're usually such a tiny minority that their efforts fade into noise. I get a consistent 2 to 3 thumbs down on my articles published in Maemo Planet and that consistency tells me it has little to do with the actual article-- but those numbers are so small they have no real effect.

So I'm not too worried about abuse of a member "civility voting system". The concerns tend to focus too much about a loud, shrill minority.

And yes you and I are in alignment on addressing behavior BUT do note I'm a minor moderator here and that ultimately Reggie has been setting the tone.
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Joorin is offline Joorin
2010-06-13 , 17:18
Posts: 726 | Thanked: 345 times | Joined on Apr 2010 @ Sweden
#213
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
And yes you and I are in alignment on addressing behavior BUT do note I'm a minor moderator here and that ultimately Reggie has been setting the tone.
Minor moderator or not, if you support a suggestion it goes a long way.

And, to get a bit technical, any kind of change requires work with the forum code. Is work done to maintain it? Are there techies to persuade? Should I take this with Reggie instead?
 
ndi's Avatar
ndi is offline ndi
2010-06-13 , 17:20
Posts: 2,050 | Thanked: 1,425 times | Joined on Dec 2009 @ Bucharest
#214
Originally Posted by Joorin View Post
And I still think that a vote system that enables all users to help with keeping the forum clean is the best way to solve this.
Always agreed. Let them work too, why should the mods carry all the stones?

Originally Posted by Joorin View Post
You raised a point about people that are bad communicators or bad at English might get an unfair treatment with this system and I understand your point but I don't agree on it. Looking at the threads I've stumbled over in my short time here, bad English is pretty common but not something that stops people from helping or trying to ask questions to understand.
Not that this isn't an interesting topic, but we've been over this in some detail, you might want the relaxing read.

Originally Posted by Joorin View Post
Knowing that you can vote someone off the forum, bad English isn't the main point up for evaluation. In my experience, behaviour is evaluated and this is all in line with Texrat's view on things (unless I've totally misunderstood something).

Trying to move threads to "out of sight" places is to treat the symptom and not the problem.
That's why I like it when I see locations in people's posts. It amplifies my doltometer. Still, this moves my opinion of the user and his/her values, not those of the content, so in the end, it does little above being a nuisance.

Finally, we try to cure the symptom because the cure for the cause is part jail and part execution and that sort of smells of failed management. Not that I'd cry to see some people not come back, but final decisions need a lot more effort. Plus, there's the people I hate more than the trollers, the raiders.

The raider is that special kind of <profanity> that always bites at you and pushes, and kicks, until you become serious about acting, then plays straight for a while to gain sympathy from people who do not have a full list of posts. then bites. Then starts dancing around rules. Screams when warned, but as soon as the warning expires posts a thread stirring as much anger as possible. We had a case here, and after banning people still came up asking what happened to poor <>.

Oh dear, you got me started again.
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N900 dead and Nokia no longer replaces them. Thanks for all the fish.

Keep the forums clean: use "Thanks" button instead of the thank you post.
 
Joorin is offline Joorin
2010-06-13 , 17:55
Posts: 726 | Thanked: 345 times | Joined on Apr 2010 @ Sweden
#215
Originally Posted by ndi View Post
That's why I like it when I see locations in people's posts. It amplifies my doltometer. Still, this moves my opinion of the user and his/her values, not those of the content, so in the end, it does little above being a nuisance.
I'm sorry, but you lost me. Am I more of a dolt for declaring that I'm from Sweden? Or just for declaring where I'm from?

Finally, we try to cure the symptom because the cure for the cause is part jail and part execution and that sort of smells of failed management. Not that I'd cry to see some people not come back, but final decisions need a lot more effort. Plus, there's the people I hate more than the trollers, the raiders.
I'd say the cure is shared responsibility.

Oh dear, you got me started again.
s'ry.
 
Sarcastic_Twit is offline Sarcastic_Twit
2010-06-13 , 21:38
Posts: 15 | Thanked: 10 times | Joined on May 2010
#216
Originally Posted by abill_uk View Post
Patience is a virtue !.
Patience is for people that die waiting for something to happen.

You guys are all trying to reinvent the wheel. Just making a ranking system for comments and a flagging system for threads is good enough for tiny little sites like craigslist and engadget. That includes adding a rants and raves section for both trolls AS WELL AS fanboys. Of course, this means that moderators would have to allow anger and disappointment threads, which, they have been unwilling to do.

But does it matter in six months? Nope. By then, people will have already moved on to Meego and this board can return to the small niche crowd that it's used to. Someone new will pop in once in a while with the, "Hey I just bought this on ebay, does the n900 do this?" and the answer is, "Nope, one guy was working on it and he quit."

The opportunity to make a "community" died when Nokia quit. Maemo could have said, "You know what, f*ck them. Nokia orphaned us, we don't need them. Let's make an effort to port or develop as many apps for maemo as possible, so that when Meego users come back here for apps, we can tell them, 'Sure you can have somegreatapp.DEB, just flash your phone to maemo6.'"
 
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2010-06-13 , 22:20
Posts: 11,700 | Thanked: 10,045 times | Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA
#217
Originally Posted by Sarcastic_Twit View Post
That includes adding a rants and raves section for both trolls AS WELL AS fanboys. Of course, this means that moderators would have to allow anger and disappointment threads, which, they have been unwilling to do.
You're generalizing.

I sure don't mind a section devoted to venting. Granted it only addresses the surface of the issues, but many times that's all some people are after anyway.

So yeah, if we had such a "quarantined" section I'd have no problem with allowing those threads there. But I get the idea Reggie disagrees.
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penguinbait is offline penguinbait
2010-06-13 , 22:26
Posts: 3,096 | Thanked: 1,525 times | Joined on Jan 2006 @ Michigan, USA
#218
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
You're generalizing.

I sure don't mind a section devoted to venting. Granted it only addresses the surface of the issues, but many times that's all some people are after anyway.

So yeah, if we had such a "quarantined" section I'd have no problem with allowing those threads there. But I get the idea Reggie disagrees.

Why do you think Reggie disagrees? Because we have not heard from him? Or has something else or some other communications made you think this?

I would love to hear what Reggie has to say on the subject.
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To all my Maemo friends. I will no longer be monitoring any of my threads here on a regular basis. I am no longer supporting anything I did under maemo at maemo.org. If you need some help with something you can reach me at tablethacker.com or www.facebook.com/penguinbait. I have disabled my PM's here, and removed myself from Council email and Community mailing list. There has been some fun times, see you around.
 
gerbick
2010-06-13 , 23:07
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#219
Allow me to ask this... what does Nokia feel/say/think about this community becoming as disenfranchised - even in bits - about the prior Maemo 5 iteration being cut at the knees in terms of updating to the next iteration of their Linux based OS for their phones?

I mean, if they lose a percentage of this forum, they lose the people that would evangelize the Maemo/MeeGo platform for them... for free. I doubt they have even taken notice of what's going on; but to have people that work at Nokia hang around here and not take notice of how some folks are just.. not happy right now.

How will that lend itself to the next OS iteration? Fancy bells and whistles, hardware can only satisfy so many people. Support, communication and a community that's not in disarray (even if it's only bits right now, this could be seen as the tipping point) do not help a company.

The thread closings, the rank anger, the "trolls", well-established members not being happy... those things don't work well for an up and coming release.

Oh... and the solution for threads where folks get riled up? One part is in place... "Off Topic" already exists. Change the description to something more of an area where the "law" is as loose as the tongues in that area. Reggie already pulled that area's ability to update the front page of ITT and the side bar here. And threads that are volatile, move them there.

No need for commentary from the person that moves it other than "Moved from X to Y, <link to Forum Rules>" and go from there.

With that said... I would love to hear what Nokia thinks on this subject.
 

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Corso85 is offline Corso85
2010-06-14 , 00:54
Posts: 278 | Thanked: 209 times | Joined on Dec 2009
#220
I was wondering. Can anyone break it down for me? You know the details of it?

Maemo Devices is a subdivision of Nokia? Who decides on the Hardware? Who decides on the software?

Will Maemo Devices become Meego Devices? Will the people Meego/Maemo like move into a building or they'll just work remotely?.

Maybe someone can point me to a historical record. Like the your latest blog post Textrat. That was quite informative.

Is there really a support forum from Nokia for the n900?
 
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