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ragnar is offline ragnar
2008-12-17 , 18:33
Posts: 631 | Thanked: 1,123 times | Joined on Sep 2005 @ Helsinki
#101
Originally Posted by briand View Post
When my N800 is done charging, and I'm about to unplug it, the screen is dark. When I unplug it, it lights up the screen and displays the message that I should unplug the charger from the wall outlet -- are you implying that there is no extra energy consumption required to power the tablet's screen? (and, if so, why is there an energy-saving, battery-saving option to dim the screen in the first place?)

as for the origin of "these figures", simply read through this entire thread. someone has already extrapolated how much energy is "wasted" by leaving the charger unit connected to the wall outlet, and has compared that figure to the power consumption figures on the specification sheet for a typical LCD display of similar size and backlighting technology.
There is virtually no extra energy consumed, since the tablet is on anyway when it is charging. Displaying something on screen for 5 seconds... Well you could calculate from a 1500mAh battery how much 0.n mA power showing this prompt consumes, but the figure would be close to zero - for the "off" cases i think it's anyway doing a controlled shutdown at the same time.

I have read through this thread and I don't see anyone having made that calculation, could you point me towards it.
 
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GeneralAntilles is offline GeneralAntilles
2008-12-17 , 18:38
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#102
Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
When the alternative seems to put your head firmly in the sand like an ostrich and to deny all problems relating to energy use, global warming etc., I for one am happy that a company like Nokia tries to do something about something. When a huge company does even small changes and small improvements, it has big effects.
Except when, you know, it doesn't. Turning off the lights is not analogous here.

Let's try to avoid the preachy warm-fuzzies and stick to the facts (now that we have them).

Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
There is virtually no extra energy consumed, since the tablet is on anyway when it is charging.
These aren't desktop machines that consume huge amounts of power when they're on and idle, these are mobile computers that consume practically nothing when they're idle. A tablet can run for 30 days when it's completely idle.

Any argument claiming that a tablet consumes the same amount of power when it's on with the screen off and the CPU idle, as when it's on with the screen on and the CPU active displaying a banner is completely and entirely bogus. The first situation can get up to 30 days of battery life, the second might get you 7 hours.

So, yes, turning the screen and CPU on to display a banner uses a non-trivial amount of energy. Honestly, I find it somewhat disturbing that a UI designer doesn't seem to realize exactly how little power the tablets use at idle (or maybe you're just overlooking it to boost your argument). :\
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Last edited by GeneralAntilles; 2008-12-17 at 20:54. Reason: My muscle memory, for some goddamn reason, wants to make words longer at the expense of accuracy and keystrokes. . . .
 

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fragos is offline fragos
2008-12-17 , 19:49
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#103
I for one don't understand what's the big deal with this disconnect power message. It seems to me there are bigger fish to fry and more meaningful subjects to discuss. Learn to ignore petty insignificant annoyances and you'll lead a much happer life.
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daperl is offline daperl
2008-12-17 , 20:49
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#104
Originally Posted by fragos View Post
I for one don't understand what's the big deal with this disconnect power message. It seems to me there are bigger fish to fry and more meaningful subjects to discuss. Learn to ignore petty insignificant annoyances and you'll lead a much happer life.
I disagree with you. Is that okay? If not, too bad 'cause it makes me happy. Power consumption is anything but petty or insignificant. Or did you mean it's just not sexy enough for you? Because I consider this the biggest fish. Any time someone can quantitatively demonstrate energy consumption issues, it's a big f*ckin' deal. In the grand scheme it's a scalability thing, and both hardware and software need to be accountable at all times. You wouldn't have that tablet in your hand if these issues were petty and insignificant.

"Now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion..."
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Benson is offline Benson
2008-12-17 , 20:57
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#105
Originally Posted by fragos View Post
I for one don't understand what's the big deal with this disconnect power message. It seems to me there are bigger fish to fry and more meaningful subjects to discuss. Learn to ignore petty insignificant annoyances and you'll lead a much happer life.

It's even worse than that; someone
is wrong on my Internet Tablet.
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Francisco is offline Francisco
2008-12-17 , 21:25
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#106
Originally Posted by Francisco View Post
We should not forget we can change the power of Wifi radio from 100mW (default) to 10mW. This makes for me a big difference for battery life.
http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...dio+power+10mw


Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
No, no it doesn't, actually. Anybody who claims it does is either insane or not accounting for all variables.
What variables are not accounted? For my normal use it makes a big difference. Has someone measured this parameter?
 
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GeneralAntilles is offline GeneralAntilles
2008-12-17 , 21:36
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#107
Originally Posted by Francisco View Post
What variables are not accounted? For my normal use it makes a big difference. Has someone measured this parameter?
Yes, Nokia. It's a regulatory requirement (France, maybe), not a power saving measure. The radio transmitter is only a very small fraction of the power consumption of the WiFi interface. Most of the power is user by WiFi chip itself.

Any difference in battery life you're experiencing is either placebo or some other change.
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ragnar is offline ragnar
2008-12-18 , 06:42
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#108
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
Except when, you know, it doesn't. Turning off the lights is not analogous here.

consume huge amounts of power when they're on and idle, these are mobile computers that consume practically nothing when they're idle. A tablet can run for 30 days when it's completely idle.

Any argument claiming that a tablet consumes the same amount of power when it's on with the screen off and the CPU idle, as when it's on with the screen on and the CPU active displaying a banner is completely and entirely bogus. The first situation can get up to 30 days of battery life, the second might get you 7 hours.

So, yes, turning the screen and CPU on to display a banner uses a non-trivial amount of energy. Honestly, I find it somewhat disturbing that a UI designer doesn't seem to realize exactly how little power the tablets use at idle (or maybe you're just overlooking it to boost your argument). :\
Well yes, I'm a designer, not an engineer. I have seen exact figures for some earlier devices, but it was years ago, and even if I would have them, they're company confidential, so I couldn't really quote them. I didn't argue anywhere that it would consume the same amount of power in those two cases, perhaps you should stop reading between invisible lines.

But calculating in layman's terms, let's utilize the 7 hours figure. 7 hours is 25200 seconds, running a 1500mAh battery. So taking 5 seconds out of that takes 1500/(25200/5) = 0.3 mA from the battery of power to display the message (in the worst possible case, as if power consumption would be 0.0 without the message). You would need some more figures for charger efficiency etc., but from there somebody could calculate how much time it takes for a idle charger to consume the same amount of power than what it takes it to produce 0.3 mA power in the battery. (if it wouldn't be such an asinine thing to calculate in the first place).

Anyway, the main argument was about big companies. When there are 3 billion mobile phones in the world, you can also say that there's 3 billion chargers. (That most are unfortunately more wasteful than the Nokia chargers.) Take even a small percentage out of these people, say a hundred million people, starting to unplug their phone - and other device - chargers and thinking about idle power, and it will have a real effect.
Last edited by ragnar; 2008-12-18 at 07:15.
 
gemniii42 is offline gemniii42
2008-12-18 , 12:44
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#109
With all the brains and bandwidth wasted on this subject (to plug or unplug the wallwart, that is the question) on this forum, not to include probably hundreds of other forums, has any engineer attempted to determine how much electricity is WASTED discussing WASTED electricity?

It's like holding a 2 hour meeting with 10 engineers, at a cost of $5,000, to figure how to spend $2,000.

Of course the determination in itself would be a wasted effort.
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attila77 is offline attila77
2008-12-18 , 14:42
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#110
I do find the whole issue a more of a marketing/branding/making feel warm issue. I wonder how much power Nokia shops/buildings and billboards consume just for lighting. I wouldn't be surprised if that outclassed all mobile chargers and then some. But then again, turning those pesky lights off wouldn't make you feel like you actually did something for the environment even though the end result is probably worse.

The bottom line is thus IMHO something else. It doesn't matter how much energy you save (or not save) disconnecting your chargers. The goal is to train you become 'environmentally friendly' or at least actively try to make you become one. Unfortunately, this is becoming a moral/ethical question leaning to ecological dogmas, even though the original topic (our impact on the environment and it's consequences) is a very technical question.

But I agree with the previous poster, we most certainly wasted more electricity discussing this than it is ecologically sound, and I have gone seriously off-topic
 

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