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pango	2014-08-27 , 16:17
Posts: 114 \| Thanked: 37 times \| Joined on Aug 2014	#101

Originally Posted by w00t

That may have something to do with every word said in public being forever repeated against you later (for instance, with the Silica open sourcing that a particular prominent member of this thread loves to harp on about).

Someone was open with what they would like to see happen, and for various reasons, it didn't happen. Apparently, talking about future plans you'd like to see happen is a reason to crucify the whole company for a lack of openness for the indefinite future.

And you wonder why a number of people are careful about what they say on here, or prefix them with constant disclaimers?

Nothing wrong with constant disclaimers. Nothing wrong with telling plans changed or are unsure. Nothing wrong with even debating, hotly, topics with people. All that can be very open and very honest and very refreshing. In many cases the problem is, change of plans would rather not be openly announced if it seems better to leave it linger... People tend to avoid difficult topics and that's not what openness is about.

Usually it is when people want to hide certain things, or avoid certain topics, when transparency and honesty become difficult for them - and that shows in their comms or lack of them. They may rationalize it internally, but externally it does show - and it is a different problem from being careful.

A very easy to test is this: Am I not telling something, because I'm hopeful not telling it will be beneficial to me? That perhaps through silence I can avoid having to say something uncomfortable and it will all just sort itself out? If the answer inside one's head is yes, then that's not openness or even carefulness.

Now, I get it that there are business secrets in business. But there can also be plenty of openness in business.

But don't mind me, jalyst posted it much more eloquently: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=29

pango	2014-08-27 , 16:21
Posts: 114 \| Thanked: 37 times \| Joined on Aug 2014	#102

Originally Posted by nodevel

I am not a Jolla employee, but the situation is quite easy to describe:

Have you got a problem with SIM holder?
Contact Jolla Care and send it for repair. Period.

Of course. But that, too, is a complete non-answer from a transparency point of view.

Originally Posted by nodevel

Have in mind that other companies also don't usually publicize these issues.

Perhaps. But they are not unlike. They don't boast about transparency, do they?

Originally Posted by nodevel

Earlier you mentioned that I am comparing Jolla to larger companies and that startups should communicate more. I don't agree - I think that it is fair to compare if Jolla wants to compete with big players and if anything, startups would deserve more tolerance, not less.

But shouldn't those values mean something? A smaller company has more direct human ability to live them, due to less organizational abstraction? What does transparency mean to Jolla?

	benny1967	2014-08-27 , 16:27
	Posts: 3,790 \| Thanked: 5,718 times \| Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria	#103

Originally Posted by pango

Of course. But that, too, is a complete non-answer from a transparency point of view.

It's a non-answer because it's a non-question. Nobody asks "Do I have a problem with my SIM-card-holder? Please be transparent!"
People say "I have a problem with my SIM-card-holder. Fix it! Now!"

I still don't understand what an 'answer' to this problem could possibly be. Can you give an example of possible answers you could think of?

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nodevel	2014-08-27 , 16:36
Posts: 752 \| Thanked: 2,808 times \| Joined on Jan 2011 @ Czech Republic	#104

Originally Posted by pango

Of course. But that, too, is a complete non-answer from a transparency point of view.

It is a complete answer. Your idea of transparency is clearly different from mine... You want transparency just for the sake of transparency? Would you want Jolla to publish the exact time every employee comes to work and the time (s)he leaves? Because if they withhold such information, there are not 100% transparent, are they?

Please explain to me what benefit (to anyone) it would bring if Jolla talked publicly about the SIM issue (which is probably a problem of an initial batch so it doesn't apply to today anyways). Jolla would be completely stupid if they published it.
They have most likely fixed it in other revisions, but Jolla would forever be "the phone with the SIM card issue" which clearly isn't the case.

Perhaps. But they are not unlike. They don't boast about transparency, do they?

Jolla is already more transparent than any of them (look through the mailing list, Mer sources, TJC, IRC meetings) - I would say it is too transparent, I would hold back a bit if I were them.

But shouldn't those values mean something? A smaller company has more direct human ability to live them, due to less organizational abstraction?

A larger company has much more personnel to deal with customers.

PS: I still think that I am talking to fk_lx, because some arguments hold similar (non)logic. I've been a witness of quite a few fk_lx/JollaPL conversation switcharoos, so it wouldn't be completely off.

Last edited by nodevel; 2014-08-27 at 16:48.

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pango	2014-08-27 , 16:58
Posts: 114 \| Thanked: 37 times \| Joined on Aug 2014	#105

Originally Posted by nodevel

It is a complete answer. Your idea of transparency is clearly different from mine... You want transparency just for the sake of transparency? Would you want Jolla to publish the exact time every employee comes to work and the time (s)he leaves? Because if they withhold such information, there are not 100% transparent, are they?

Of course I don't want transparency for the sake of transparency. I would like to see it, because I think it would be good for Jolla and would have lessened many of the issues they have with people loosing faith or being annoyed with Jolla. I think jalyst's idea of brutal honesty (in moderate doses of coures) was a good one. Less PR fluff, more direct info was his thought - which got me to post. Here is jalyst's post: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=29

Maybe it is complete nonlogic too, for you?

Is it necessary to discuss the SIM holder to be sufficiently transparent? No. But to me it, as an example, seems like a very Jolla thing to do, when faced with an uncomfortable topic - to be silent about it or avoid it with a non-answer. I think they would benefit from being more transparent. That is my opinion.

Originally Posted by nodevel

Please explain to me what benefit (to anyone) it would bring if Jolla talked publicly about the SIM issue (which is probably a problem of an initial batch so it doesn't apply to today anyways). Jolla would be completely stupid if they published it.
They have most likely fixed it in other revisions, but Jolla would forever be "the phone with the SIM card issue" which clearly isn't the case.

The benefit would be respect towards Jolla from the early adopter community. It is often said that the handling of a complaint is more important than the issue itself. A well-handled complaint can gain more goodwill than had there had been no issue at all.

But the SIM card holder is just an example. Like I said, here's the test:

Am I not telling something, because I'm hopeful not telling it will be beneficial to me? That perhaps through silence I can avoid having to say something uncomfortable and it will all just sort itself out? If the answer inside one's head is yes, then that's not openness or even carefulness. I think it is a bad idea.

Originally Posted by nodevel

Jolla is already more transparent than any of them (look through the mailing list, Mer sources, TJC, IRC meetings) - I would say it is too transparent, I would hold back a bit if I were them.

A larger company has much more personnel to deal with customers.

But that's just the thing. Jolla is already very active, they are already spending a lot of time in the public. But mostly it is PR fluff and technical FOSS stuff. As a company, they rarely are transparent at all - and that, I think, is starting to hurt them. Most of the disgruntled voices (even fk_lx to an extent) I see, are people who were opportunities for Jolla to keep in the loop with better openness and not trying to swipe the hard stuff under the carpet. That is my opinion.

Originally Posted by nodevel

PS: I still think that I am talking to fk_lx, because some arguments hold similar (non)logic.

If you aren't a Finnish speaker, someone else can analyze my Finnish here: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=98 Tietääkseni fk_lx ei bamlaa sen enempää svenskaa, finskaa kuin stadin slangiakaan.

pango	2014-08-27 , 17:05
Posts: 114 \| Thanked: 37 times \| Joined on Aug 2014	#106

Originally Posted by benny1967

It's a non-answer because it's a non-question. Nobody asks "Do I have a problem with my SIM-card-holder? Please be transparent!"
People say "I have a problem with my SIM-card-holder. Fix it! Now!"

I still don't understand what an 'answer' to this problem could possibly be. Can you give an example of possible answers you could think of?

I believe the SIM card holder has been discussed and asked about. No?

How about just telling the story? There are those in the early adopter community clearly bugged about it. Even the spare battery story got better once Jolla stopped posting tweets about their spare batteries and instead addressed why they have a hard time distributing them. Now, that was not such an uncomfortable topic, but that kind of info is a much better example. It is just too bad it took flammable posts to get them to comment on that.

I think in many cases avoiding direct comment through silence or a non-answer is a bad idea, but has been Jolla's preferred way for difficult topics.

Anyway, don't mind me. Just think about what jalyst said, I think he had the idea even better in his post: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=29

	Morpog	2014-08-27 , 17:15
	Posts: 956 \| Thanked: 2,628 times \| Joined on Nov 2011	#107

If I had a SIM card holder issue what would help me?

a) Jolla tells me the exact technical reason why this happens (pango`s solution)
b) Jolla tells me to contact care to get it repaired (Jolla's solution)
c) Jolla tells me I'm holding it wrong (Apple's solution)

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juiceme	2014-08-27 , 17:15
Community Council \| Posts: 4,920 \| Thanked: 12,867 times \| Joined on May 2012 @ Southerrn Finland	#108

Originally Posted by pango

But that's just the thing. Jolla is already very active, they are already spending a lot of time in the public. But mostly it is PR fluff and technical FOSS stuff.

Well there you are.
PR fluff -> all companies do it, large and small. Ignore it if you don't like it
FOSS stuff -> this is what is important to me, for example.

Originally Posted by pango

As a company, they rarely are transparent at all - and that, I think, is starting to hurt them.

I have no idea what are you talking about here, what "openness" do you mean besides the 2 things above?
There is no possibility for a company to be more open IMHO. This is a company doing business, not a boyscout club we are talking about.

Originally Posted by pango

Most of the disgruntled voices (even fk_lx to an extent) I see, are people who were opportunities for Jolla to keep in the loop with better openness and not trying to swipe the hard stuff under the carpet. That is my opinion.

I still cannot imagine what is this openness you are after...

Originally Posted by pango

If you aren't a Finnish speaker, someone else can analyze my Finnish here: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=98 Tietääkseni fk_lx ei bamlaa sen enempää svenskaa, finskaa kuin stadin slangiakaan.

Yes, I believe you are either a native finnish speaker or you have some finnish friend making up your finnish bits. They are pretty convincing, nothing you can easily make up with google translate for example.
Still, you could be Filipp, for all I know

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	Dave999	2014-08-27 , 17:30
	Posts: 7,075 \| Thanked: 9,073 times \| Joined on Oct 2009 @ Moon! It's not the East or the West side... it's the Dark Side	#109

Originally Posted by coderus

just have Jolla (2013) and Jolla (2015) devices. Ok for me.

or just add another l to every new iteration. Jolla, Jollla, Jolllla and so forth

Originally Posted by NokiaFanatic

I don't like the iPhone, but at least they keep their naming conventions very straight forward.

iPhone (1)
iPhone 3g
iPhone 3gs
iPhone 4
iPhone 4s
etc.

Hopefully Jolla keep it simple and just call the next Jolla, the Jolla 2.

Some examples of awful naming conventions. The HTC One has to have the worst, these are all actually unique devices!

HTC One V
HTC One SV
HTC One S
HTC One X
HTC One XL
HTC One +
HTC One
HTC One X+
HTC One Mini
HTC One Max
HTC One (M)
etc.

No wonder HTC sales plummeted - no one had a clue what was the name of the phone they were supposed to be buying!

Another naming convention that was awful was Symbian.

Symbian^3/Anna/Belle
Symbian^2[45]
Symbian^1/Series 60 5th Edition
Series 60 3rd Edition

Ugh, how do you even pronounce a ^ character? Just keep OS names simple and use the standard major/minor version of numbers!

Have you heard the story about apple phone aka iPhone? Apple was planning to call it just Apple phone. But "someone" started to call it aPhone on an internal forum. Later it changed to iPhone and the rest is history. But aPhone was not far off. What if jolla learn from that story...

__________________
Do something for the climate today! Anything!

I don't trust poeple without a Nokia n900...

Last edited by Dave999; 2014-08-27 at 17:38.

	benny1967	2014-08-27 , 17:31
	Posts: 3,790 \| Thanked: 5,718 times \| Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria	#110

Originally Posted by pango

I believe the SIM card holder has been discussed and asked about. No?

How about just telling the story?

The story is and always has been: Send it in for repair.

If your screen is broken, you send it in for repair. If your speaker is broken (which happened to some, IIRC), you send it in for repair. If your USB-port is broken, you send it in for repair. Yet, if your SIM-card-holder is broken, all of a sudden it turns into a semi-esotheric mythical stuff and people want "answers" and "transparency" instead of having their phones fixed?

I'm not getting it. And again, maybe it would help if you could just make up a possible "answer" you'd have expected from Jolla so that we know what you actually talk about.