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2010-06-30
, 17:04
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Posts: 2,050 |
Thanked: 1,425 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Bucharest
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#122
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Well, the Windows user is a bit lost here. Could you clean up reception for me?
a) You say MeeGo is a project hosted by Linux Foundations. How does that matter in the slightest? Hosted by? Who makes the rules and who enforces them? It seems like such a temporary association.
I could ally myself with The International Front for Preventing Murder. What does that prove? That I probably will stick to it until murder is necessary. Has the Linux foundation the ability to force anything? How is this any different?
b) You also say that it's much, much more open that Maemo and more than Android. I ask you: If I can't go through, does it matter how much the door is open? Maemo is more open than Android, but it's still closed enough that little developer head can fit through.
How is having a door you can't go through a little more closed constitute an advantage? That's like saying the jail is better because the bars are further apart.
c) You all said there are no viruses for N900.
d) Finally, I propose measures. That is, a developer strike.
No, not that kind of developer strike, what are you? We need apps like water.
I mean that, if possible, viable, etc, a package like notmynokia, community signed with love, be used a dependency for all apps submitted and updated by developers who join the strike.
Since it does nothing else, it should not cause any problems.
The end result of this action would be vaccination. All phones will eventually be protected, leaving the damned virus to die out.
You might point out that my answer to unwanted software is unwanted software. I say:
* a cure is not unwanted
* subscription is possible via button, no functionality will be lost
* you can't ask a bug to please take its pesticide
* the vaccine should have the option of doing nothing
* this is not the first software release to be flagged as malware
Viva la revolucion!
Er, I mean, your thoughts?
a) You say MeeGo is a project hosted by Linux Foundations. How does that matter in the slightest? Hosted by? Who makes the rules and who enforces them? It seems like such a temporary association.
I could ally myself with The International Front for Preventing Murder. What does that prove? That I probably will stick to it until murder is necessary. Has the Linux foundation the ability to force anything? How is this any different?
b) You also say that it's much, much more open that Maemo and more than Android. I ask you: If I can't go through, does it matter how much the door is open? Maemo is more open than Android, but it's still closed enough that little developer head can fit through.
How is having a door you can't go through a little more closed constitute an advantage? That's like saying the jail is better because the bars are further apart.
c) You all said there are no viruses for N900.
Originally Posted by wikipedia
Well, that qualifies. I officially declare the count 1."Spyware is a type of malware that is installed on computers and collects little bits of information at a time about users without their knowledge. The presence of spyware is typically hidden from the user, and can be difficult to detect. Typically, spyware is secretly installed on the user's personal computer.
d) Finally, I propose measures. That is, a developer strike.
No, not that kind of developer strike, what are you? We need apps like water.
I mean that, if possible, viable, etc, a package like notmynokia, community signed with love, be used a dependency for all apps submitted and updated by developers who join the strike.
Since it does nothing else, it should not cause any problems.
The end result of this action would be vaccination. All phones will eventually be protected, leaving the damned virus to die out.
You might point out that my answer to unwanted software is unwanted software. I say:
* a cure is not unwanted
* subscription is possible via button, no functionality will be lost
* you can't ask a bug to please take its pesticide
* the vaccine should have the option of doing nothing
* this is not the first software release to be flagged as malware
Viva la revolucion!
Er, I mean, your thoughts?
__________________
N900 dead and Nokia no longer replaces them. Thanks for all the fish.
Keep the forums clean: use "Thanks" button instead of the thank you post.
N900 dead and Nokia no longer replaces them. Thanks for all the fish.
Keep the forums clean: use "Thanks" button instead of the thank you post.
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2010-06-30
, 18:01
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Posts: 670 |
Thanked: 747 times |
Joined on Aug 2009
@ Kansas City, Missouri, USA
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#123
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Originally Posted by ndi
It matters a LOT! It makes a BIG difference!
a) You say MeeGo is a project hosted by Linux Foundations. How does that matter in the slightest? Hosted by? Who makes the rules and who enforces them? Has the Linux foundation the ability to force anything? How is this any different?
http://www.linuxfoundation.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Foundation
b) You also say that it's much, much more open that Maemo and more than Android...Maemo is more open than Android, but it's still closed enough that little developer head can fit through.
Now, MeeGo, as it is installed on any given device, may not be totally OSS due to added stuff like a custom UI (think Sense or MotoBlur on Android), proprietary drivers or certain included software. But overall it's still more open than Android or Maemo.
c) You all said there are no viruses for N900.
Well, that qualifies. I officially declare the count 1.
d) Finally, I propose measures. That is, a developer strike.I mean that, if possible, viable, etc, a package like notmynokia, community signed with love, be used a dependency for all apps submitted and updated by developers who join the strike. The end result of this action would be vaccination.
__________________
Registered Linux user #266531.
Registered Linux user #266531.
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2010-06-30
, 18:43
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Posts: 121 |
Thanked: 53 times |
Joined on Aug 2006
@ Alexandria, VA, USA
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#124
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I'm not sure that I registered with MyNokia, even though I upgraded to 1.2. I haven't received any messages from MyNokia. I upgraded by flashing. ISTR that the instructions for upgrading that way said to remove the SIM card before flashing. ISTR that I followed those instructions.
Anyway, ~/.cherry_state has a line that suggests that I registered for MyNokia ("accepted=true"). However, when I used the My Nokia app in Settings to unsubscribe, I received an SMS from 21342 that said, "Attempt to unsubscribe has failed. Go to 'My Nokia' in Settings to try again. Visit www.nokia.com/mynokia for more information." What's more, after I log into Ovi, when I visit MyNokia, it wants me to register for MyNokia. It has a form some of my information already filled in, which isn't surprising since I gave that to Ovi a while ago.
In the FAQ for My Nokia, I read that you can unsubscribe by sending "STOP" to 21342. After the failure message, I sent "STOP" to 21342. I haven't received a reply.
Anyway, ~/.cherry_state has a line that suggests that I registered for MyNokia ("accepted=true"). However, when I used the My Nokia app in Settings to unsubscribe, I received an SMS from 21342 that said, "Attempt to unsubscribe has failed. Go to 'My Nokia' in Settings to try again. Visit www.nokia.com/mynokia for more information." What's more, after I log into Ovi, when I visit MyNokia, it wants me to register for MyNokia. It has a form some of my information already filled in, which isn't surprising since I gave that to Ovi a while ago.
In the FAQ for My Nokia, I read that you can unsubscribe by sending "STOP" to 21342. After the failure message, I sent "STOP" to 21342. I haven't received a reply.
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2010-06-30
, 21:55
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Posts: 2,050 |
Thanked: 1,425 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Bucharest
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#125
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Originally Posted by Crashdamage
I'm sorry, I scanned both links. I have detected the following differences:
It matters a LOT! It makes a BIG difference!
* Maemo is Linux, which is open. Nokia is free to put some closed stuff on it, like drivers and apps, because nothing says it has to be open all the way to the neck. Everyone is free to put closed stuff on it, especially since it's their own device. It did.
* MeeGo is Linux, which is open. Nokia is free to put some closed stuff on it, like drivers and apps, because nothing says it has to be open all the way to the neck. Everyone is free to put closed stuff on it, especially since it's their own device. It might just. Actually, considering the hairy thing labeled as competitive advantage, they will.
Please point out the mistake. Can't see the BIG difference for the user. (if you meant as a matter of principle and openness, I agree, it's a difference).
Originally Posted by Crashdamage
See bars on prison analogy. I don't care if I have 8 or 9 nails hammered into my head.
How could being more open not better than being less open, even if only partially?
Open, closed, open, closed. I'm a user. Talk about hats. The most closed OS ever has replacements for all included apps, included phone, sms, mail, video call, chat, etc. Woe is them. They ended up banning competition for "duplication of features".
Meanwhile, I had the most embarrassing event ever to involve a phone in my life. [rant deleted] I'll skip the details, wrong thread. The advantage of an open system is that you can fix your own darn bug. Can I? No.
The other advantage of openness is that you can read the source, make sure someone doesn't steal your personal info. Can I? No.
It's closed to me.
Having to use closed apps on a free open software is like being in jail in international waters.
[rant deleted]
I don't know why I'm telling you this, you just put a face on my issue. And there's that phone incident thing. That's going on Nokia's permanent record.
Originally Posted by Crashdamage
That's odd, must be my English. I thought that Nokia and Intel made the project, and it was hosted by TLF. Now I understand that TLF controls it. Yes, well, if they have the ability to force (legally) MeeGo to go all-open, that's another story.
And anyway, MeeGo itself will be totally open, not partially. It will be under public control by the Linux Foundation, not a company's control like Android.
Originally Posted by Crashdamage
By the sense that it's 9 nails versus 8, I agree. By the sense that my phone doesn't work and nobody can fix it, it is exactly as closed. Nice to see openness is spreading, though.
Now, MeeGo, as it is installed on any given device, may not be totally OSS due to added stuff like a custom UI (think Sense or MotoBlur on Android), proprietary drivers or certain included software. But overall it's still more open than Android or Maemo.
Originally Posted by Crashdamage
Care to elaborate? And it's spyware, viruses replicate.
There aren't. And it does not qualify as a virus at all.
I didn't want it. I didn't know it was there. It was brought onto my device under the pretense of an upgrade. It gathered personal data and sent it home.
Direct me to my mistake.
Originally Posted by Crashdamage
Vaccination helps reflashers, future upgraders, and sends a message. At the very least, saves further SMS costs for reflashers.
Vaccination is too late for anyone already diseased. The notmynokia package is a good thing, but not for those who already ungraded and were unwillingly registered, IOW most N900 owners.
Additionally, when the next upgrade comes, we'll have protection. Even if they change cherry (cherry? why not call it data-mine?), upgrading notmynokia would broadcast the protection to all users faster than the upgrade. It's how virus definitions work.
---------------
And there's the message part.
Does anyone else care? Does anyone else know? I've had devices for the last 15 years or so, I never knew my device called home. I still have trouble believing it.
The bug on Bugzilla has 41 votes.
114 took the time to vote for sending files from FM because they hated using Petrovich.
150 went over there because they wanted OGG out of the box.
260 voted for grouping of contacts.
Six and a half times more users want grouping than to stop having their phone number shipped to a company and its partners.
People either don't know or don't care. If they don't know, we should try informing them best we can. If they don't care, then the time spent typing here could possible be better used.
Are we here just to be outraged together?
__________________
N900 dead and Nokia no longer replaces them. Thanks for all the fish.
Keep the forums clean: use "Thanks" button instead of the thank you post.
N900 dead and Nokia no longer replaces them. Thanks for all the fish.
Keep the forums clean: use "Thanks" button instead of the thank you post.
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2010-06-30
, 22:03
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#126
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ndi, the difference is in the management of the core project.
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2010-06-30
, 22:13
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Posts: 4,672 |
Thanked: 5,455 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
@ Springfield, MA, USA
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#127
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Originally Posted by Crashdamage
These two paragraphs appear to be in some confused conflict with each other. The first tries to convince me that Maemo/MeeGo is (will be?) more open than Maemo was and much more open than Android--yet it's closed in pretty much all the same ways and places as Android and Maemo (drivers, mainly, and a bunch of apps). The other tries to convince me that Nokia WAS less than open by sneaking in some closed-source that reported personal information. Hell--even Google at least TELLS you they're reporting personal information before they do it.
Android is less open and a less capable OS. I'd think that as a hacker you'd be much more interested in working with a full-stack Linux, open OS like MeeGo than a Linux/Davlik hybrid. And MeeGo will need contributors like you to succeed.
Edit: Agree 100% that Nokia should make a clear statement regarding the ability to opt-out of data collection, regsitrations, etc.
Originally Posted by Crashdamage
You're right. It's a trojan.
There aren't. And it does not qualify as a virus at all.
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles
Explain to me how Android is effectively any less open than Nokia's implementations of Maemo and MeeGo. Near as I can tell, they both hide source code for drivers and apps in all the most critical places for either community to be able to maintain their own OS and fix bugs themselves, depending on the corporation to release fixes and trusting them not to put something surreptitious like Nokia did into the code.
Really? Android is your answer for a more open, more customer friendly and generally less evil platform?
Nokia does many things we may not like, unfortunately Maemo is still the best we've got in the market as far as open values and freedom goes. . . .
Maemo isn't the best we've got the in the market as far as open values and freedom. It's openness theater. Worse, Maemo isn't even in the market anymore.
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2010-06-30
, 23:02
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Posts: 670 |
Thanked: 747 times |
Joined on Aug 2009
@ Kansas City, Missouri, USA
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#128
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Originally Posted by ndi
I did mean as a matter of principle - mostly, not entirely. And anyway, the links were not intended to answer any argument about which OS is most open. Those links were to point out the difference between a company - Google or Nokia for instance - controlling the OS or the public - aka the Linux Foundation - controlling it, managing it. IOW, they were an answer to your question of why does hosting by the Linux Foundation matter and what is different.
I'm sorry, I scanned both links. I have detected the following differences:
* Maemo is Linux, which is open.
* MeeGo is Linux, which is open.
Please point out the mistake. Can't see the BIG difference for the user. (if you meant as a matter of principle and openness, I agree, it's a difference).
Open, closed, open, closed. I'm a user...The advantage of an open system is that you can fix your own darn bug. Can I? No...you can read the source, make sure someone doesn't steal your personal info. Can I? No. It's closed to me.
Think of it like this: can you fix your own car? Maybe, if you have the knowledge. But if your an average person, no, so it's closed to you, the hood is locked.
So...then does it matter if you own the car or lease it? After all, it still operates the same, goes the same places, runs on the same fuel, looks the same as other cars like it whether you own or lease. If it runs the same, does it matter who's managing care of the car?
Well, it matters a LOT. If you lease, you can't change anything, no customizing, you can't fix it yourself and have to get it fixed at certain shops, etc. etc. Basically, the lease company can tell you what to do and charge you for not following instructions or driving too much.
But...if you own that same car, you can change what you want, fix it yourself if you're able, take it where you want if not, drive it all you want, etc. etc.
I thought that Nokia and Intel made the project, and it was hosted by TLF. Now I understand that TLF controls it. Yes, well, if they have the ability to force (legally) MeeGo to go all-open, that's another story.
Care to elaborate? And it's spyware, viruses replicate.
Does anyone else care? Does anyone else know? I've had devices for the last 15 years or so, I never knew my device called home. I still have trouble believing it.
Six and a half times more users want grouping than to stop having their phone number shipped to a company and its partners.
People either don't know or don't care.
If they don't care, then the time spent typing here could possible be better used.
__________________
Registered Linux user #266531.
Registered Linux user #266531.
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2010-07-01
, 00:11
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Posts: 5,478 |
Thanked: 5,222 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ St. Petersburg, FL
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#129
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Originally Posted by danramos
Open is about more than code, it's about governance, philosophy, core values, hardware, carrier lock-ins, who the manufacturer is pandering to, etc., etc.
Explain to me how Android is effectively any less open than Nokia's implementations of Maemo and MeeGo. Near as I can tell, they both hide source code for drivers and apps in all the most critical places for either community to be able to maintain their own OS and fix bugs themselves, depending on the corporation to release fixes and trusting them not to put something surreptitious like Nokia did into the code.
So, no Android isn't even close to Maemo.
Originally Posted by danramos
It is. By far. It's the only one you don't have to jump through hoops to root and keep rooted. That says a lot.
Maemo isn't the best we've got the in the market as far as open values and freedom. It's openness theater. Worse, Maemo isn't even in the market anymore.
__________________
Ryan Abel
Ryan Abel
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2010-07-01
, 00:59
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#130
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And hey: if GeneralAntilles can be objective at this point, ANYbody can. 
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
If the question to Nokia is, 'how can we get information (or permission) that the device owner does not want to give', then it's going to be tough finding a 'win/win' solution. What Nokia did with MyNokia in PR1.2 seems to me quite similar to pursuing semi-legal ways to go around an NDA.
Last edited by edgar2; 2010-06-30 at 15:17.