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qgil is offline qgil
2009-03-15 , 20:40
Posts: 3,105 | Thanked: 11,088 times | Joined on Jul 2007 @ Mountain View (CA, USA)
#151
Actually the right place to discuss the the dialog box was not a new thread but

Dialog button position/layout changed
https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4183

Originally Posted by ColdFusion View Post
Right now all the arguments are settled "you users are wrong, on the final device you'll be able to see the bigger picture (which is secret right now and we can't tell you, but it'll be awsome)". We're presented with an Alpha, which in the "normal world" means "we're open for suggestions, discussion and feature requests", but at this moment I don't see a lot of interest from nokia in that regard. We're only told to have "faith" that "nokia knows best".
I hope that you can see where the frustration comes in the users. And I really hope, that when the final device is in our hands you might be more inclined to listen to people's suggestions.
The quotes are yours.

This SDK represents the first *public* alpha release of the Maemo 5 UI, but such UI has gone through an extensive period of development and testing, including user testing and specific usability testing. Briefly said, regular users were happy.

Does this mean that the doors for feedback are closed? Of course not, but this doesn't mean that we will automatically accept the conclusions made in this thread based on (screenshots of) straight Diablo / Linux desktop ports in an SDK. ragnar and I are providing arguments about why we think the changes are good.

And you must realize that you are not regular users either. Of course Till misses a Cancel button. He wrote the code for that! But is the average Maemo 5 user going to miss it? Are you going to miss it the day after you get your new device? We think you won't.
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qgil is offline qgil
2009-03-15 , 20:56
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#152


Originally Posted by qole View Post
mikkov: Interesting how the drop-down menu looks mis-aligned, and "Find and Replace" goes outside the button. I wonder why?
I would say not bad for a straight port of a Linux desktop application (with not the best HIG implementation in that dialog box?).

- Rename "Find and replace" for "Replace"
- Change the checkbox "Replace all at once" for a "Replace all" button to go under the "Replace" button.

and the dialog will improve significantly. Note that those changes are probably good for the desktop version too, so no need to fork. At least Gedit and OpenOffice.org treat Replace/Replace-all this way.

Said that, something that would be good to check with the UI designers is what to do with button label texts longer than the button itself. Seing the text going off the button is really bad so there is room for improvement there, I guess. Either the button accepts more than one line of text or cuts the text. I will ask, but if someone wants to file a bug to keep track it will be appreciated.
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qgil is offline qgil
2009-03-15 , 21:13
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#153
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
I still hope what we're seeing isn't it but something hastily put together to make a public alpha possible at all without revealing even a tiny bit of the final UI.
What you are seing are basically Diablo or Linux desktop apps recompiled for Fremantle. I wonder whether the it you are missing is caused for that or is it really because the Maemo 5 UI is not matching your expectations. If the latter, can you describe your expectations?

To be clear, let's split the Maemo 5 UI:

- System UI: home, status bar, task launcher, task switcher... anything happening "outside" the applications. As said in the alpha sdk announcement, there are some pieces still missing here.

- Optimized application UI: what you get squeezing the new UI elements following the guidelines (that will be released as soon as they are ready, not yet). We haven't seen anything yet, but Hildon is alrady providing all the elements for the developers willing to give it a try.

- Legacy application UI: all the elements kept to ease the compatibility between Diablo & Linux desktop apps. And this is what all these straight recompiles are using.
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benny1967 is offline benny1967
2009-03-15 , 22:16
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#154
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
I wonder whether the it you are missing is caused for that or is it really because the Maemo 5 UI is not matching your expectations.
not matching expectations.
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
If the latter, can you describe your expectations
Yes: "Wow!"

I knew from the information I had before that the Maemo5 UI wouldn't be one I would love to work with - simply because I'm the "my N800 is my laptop and runs Gnumeric" type of user and I understood you're not heading my way. (Which is OK, you got me under your spell meanwhile and I'll move your way if I have to.)

But (or rather: Therefore) I also expected the Maemo5 UI would make me go "Wow!" looking at it, if not using it. Clever design, revolutionary ideas, best in class, something you look at and say: "Of course it has to be this way! Why didn't I invent this?!"... Something that's just cool, beautiful, sexy. Something that makes St. Jobs want to buy one.

Now we have missing "Cancel" buttons and menus in the wrong places (breaking the most basic rules of graphical UI design), wasted space and strangely re-positioned buttons, squeezed lists and whatnot, all for no apparent reason other than "because we can". (Or so it seems - I wrote above that I still think it all will be different when the real thing's out.)

Originally Posted by qgil View Post
- Optimized application UI: what you get squeezing the new UI elements following the guidelines (that will be released as soon as they are ready, not yet). We haven't seen anything yet, but Hildon is alrady providing all the elements for the developers willing to give it a try.

- Legacy application UI: all the elements kept to ease the compatibility between Diablo & Linux desktop apps. And this is what all these straight recompiles are using.
These are the things I'm referring to when talking about a "Maemo5 UI", not the (mostly missing) part "outside the applications".

What we've seen so far were some screenshots of new widgets (maybe even from a pre-Alpha?) that are particularly uninspired (and no, I'm not referring to theming or the missing labels).
Mostly, however, there's what you call "legacy application UI". Personally, I had expected that they should look as good as on Diablo, if not better. In reality they all look more or less broken, with captions being cut off and lists showing only part of their contents. (see this and this post for bad examples.)

So yes, it's about personal expectations... after all, if I liked Diablo, I should love Fremantle, shouldn't I? Now I find I don't really. All I've got is the hope that as Fremantle will grow out of alpha-stage, it'll grow on me.
 

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2009-03-15 , 22:47
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#155
I must say, having the gtk applications composited and running in the new framework has surprised me
I'm sure the theming thereof will be tweaked and adjusted until its as comfortable as it can be.

Whats going to be interesting indeed is what we can achieve with clutter itself.
The video vdvsx posted gives a glimpse of this with the system UI (which was totally lost on me until today)

glancing at the capabilities it looks like we may be able to do stuff which I stress and strain to achieve on the 8x0 easily

does anyone know how to use the lower level cogl actor classes?
I will need to be able to draw GL lines.
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qole is offline qole
2009-03-15 , 23:10
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#156
Originally Posted by lcuk View Post
Whats going to be interesting indeed is what we can achieve with clutter itself.
The video vdvsx posted gives a glimpse of this with the system UI (which was totally lost on me until today)
Oh, man, that's too bad! I installed Scratchbox and ran the i386 SDK desktop (are we going to have to wait for the beta before the armel one works?), and that level of UI responsiveness is what I got out of the box.

Perhaps my setup is important: I have an nVidia 8800 series video card and I'm running Ubuntu 8.04.

And by using my x11vnc tip that I gave above, I can use that UI on my N800. It looks at least as good as the YouTube video, and I can use my fingers to do the clicking. The biggest problem on the N800 is the lack of a virtual keyboard.

lcuk: Perhaps you need one machine with a medium- to high-end nVidia card running Ubuntu (at least, dual booting to Ubuntu) to do dev work on Fremantle... You can use x11vnc to forward the display to your touchscreen devices...
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Last edited by qole; 2009-03-15 at 23:12.
 
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Jaffa is offline Jaffa
2009-03-16 , 16:18
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#157
Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
I'm of course very much biased, but I think that the new dialogs and notes look ... much better than the old ones, on the final hardware.
Can I clarify, do you mean "final hardware" or "final UI" or "with our polished applications"?
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SD69 is offline SD69
2009-03-16 , 16:26
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#158
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
I wonder whether the it you are missing is caused for that or is it really because the Maemo 5 UI is not matching your expectations. If the latter, can you describe your expectations?
My expectations in 2008 were that the UI would be like Diablo, but better. What do I mean by "like Diablo"? I mean the basic user input/output paradigm that tended to distinguish Diablo/Hildon UI from other mobile based UIs at that time, and which caused my preference for Diablo. Flexibility and configurability, multitasking, utilization of a pointing device, zoom and switch view keys, stylus support, etc. (Granted there was some overlap with previous inactive UIs, but Hildon was distinct) What do I mean "but better"? Quicker switching between tasks, no rendering delays, no scrolling delays, more logical and intuitive menus for more prevalent use cases, and some fatter, finger friendly, buttons are OK. Simple, but vitally important things, that would then work appropriately and not with the limitations of the previous HW generation.

My expectations are now more like optimistic hopefulness because of previous comments on this forum that it is difficult to simultaneously support finger-friendly with other UI paradigms, and that some distinguishing elements of Hildon may be dropped (if not from Maemo, then from the next device). If I look at Maemo 5 UI, will I instantly recognize that it is based on an updated and improved version of Hildon, and not as similar to Ubuntu Mobile or iPhone or Pre? I am beginning to doubt that. There's been enough said about significant changes that Nokia's idea of better is a subjective reworking of the UI which may or may not be my idea of better (and might in fact be drastically different).
 

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ColdFusion is offline ColdFusion
2009-03-16 , 17:38
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#159
Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
Well, aesthetically I would consider vertical text to be a disaster, especially when there would be more than one button on that area. It is not a scalable solution anyway.
Like I said, put some icon instead of text. I don't mind having vertical text, but that's probably me.

Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
You don't want to do a design where the total width of the available content area on the left would depend on the amount of buttons on the right (where each new button would make the available area slightly narrower). There can be cases where the content presentation on the left is the same for multiple dialogs, possibly with different amount of buttons on the right.
No, you got me wrong.
Excuse my crude mock up, but I'm in a hurry right now.

You can have only one big button on the left or right (like in my old mock up), or have them both at the same time. That way you can have one action with the left thumb and a different action with the right thumb. Or you can have a maximum of 4 buttons on the dialog if they're split in half (like I numbered them there) and you'll still have "cancel" as "click out". That makes 5 actions utilizing the same space that you have now in your dialogs, but with more convenient and efficient thumb navigation, because the buttons are bigger.
I have too made my own usability testing on my n800 with me as the only tester. And I'm really happy with it! So you can say that my usability testing was 100% successful

Well anyway, that's my idea, having the limited information that's presented to us.

Originally Posted by qgil View Post
This SDK represents the first *public* alpha release of the Maemo 5 UI, but such UI has gone through an extensive period of development and testing, including user testing and specific usability testing. Briefly said, regular users were happy.
Happy with the Alpha UI that we see now, or with a mock up of the *final UI* installed on the next device?
That's a very important question, because I don't think that they would be happy if they had to use the UI as we see it now. That's why some of us here are not happy.

Originally Posted by qgil View Post
Does this mean that the doors for feedback are closed? Of course not, but this doesn't mean that we will automatically accept the conclusions made in this thread based on (screenshots of) straight Diablo / Linux desktop ports in an SDK. ragnar and I are providing arguments about why we think the changes are good.
Well but that's all we have! Give us a mock up of the "final UI", give us an inside how the new device would look like, be designed and used (with both hands, with thumbs and a hw keyboard, with eye tracking, accelerometer navigation, mind reading), give us some example apps that are designed specifically with Fremantle in mind.
That's the only way you can get meaningful feedback. We can't be of help if we don't have enough information. But like I said, I'm not really sure that nokia wants such feedback from us.
 

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2009-03-16 , 18:11
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#160
Originally Posted by ColdFusion View Post
Happy with the Alpha UI that we see now, or with a mock up of the *final UI* installed on the next device?
That's a very important question, because I don't think that they would be happy if they had to use the UI as we see it now. That's why some of us here are not happy.
--
Well but that's all we have! Give us a mock up of the "final UI", give us an inside how the new device would look like, be designed and used (with both hands, with thumbs and a hw keyboard, with eye tracking, accelerometer navigation, mind reading), give us some example apps that are designed specifically with Fremantle in mind.
That's the only way you can get meaningful feedback. We can't be of help if we don't have enough information. But like I said, I'm not really sure that nokia wants such feedback from us.
Tested with the final UI, and/or as good simulations as were available the time, naturally. Alpha release wasn't really an UI showcase by any means. The beta SDK is coming "soon'ish" and will give you a better idea on things. We can't be giving mock-ups before that, sorry.

Then again, you're completely right about the example apps and so on. Actually we were discussing this exact topic over lunch with qgil. Things tend to make more sense if they are explained.
 

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