Hi Qim, nice to see you here ! Just a remark about a couple of points you made :

The first one is true, and the second one I agree with. But "silence" is not the same thing as "absence of answers". Yes, @nokia folks (mostly techies) do blog and participate and be helpful in the mailing lists, but that doesn't mean many long-standing questions (mostly non-technical) don't stay unanswered, especially by the people who *should* answer them (who maybe are not the same as those who speak to us).

I have seen many such questions posted to the maemo mailing lists (and posted a couple myself), which have actually been met by total silence, or at best by vague and reassuring answers, blog posts, roadmaps or declarations of intent, a lot of which are still unfulfilled six or twelve months later.

People ask their questions wherever they think they have a chance that someone will take notice : here, on the maemo lists, in comments to blog posts, on IRC, whatever. I have seen these just about everywhere : why are long-standing bugs not fixed ? will there be a BT audio profile ? will there be a BT PAN profile ? will there be a decent, non-proprietary SIP client ? will there be upgrades to the OS2007HE for the 770 ? And many more such, without an answer or a clear one.

Probably part of the reason is that often the people @nokia who see the questions don't have the answers, or maybe are not allowed to give them. This I totally understand, but then it means only two things : either there is *someone* who knows the answers and can give them -- then at times they should stand up and speak ; either there is not... 'nuff said.

So yes, "silence" is maybe not the right accusation, nor all of it ; but "noise" is not the right answer, nor all of it, either :-)

I just went and took a look.
Yes, this is the anti-iPhone in just every possible way.
Yes, this is a novel approach to hardware design (not the idea itself, but in the sense that it actually is bringing something to market).
Yes, this is the closest thing to date to "things done right" from an open-source enthusiast/hacker/geek's point of view.

I'm still not convinced I'll like the results, from a user's (or even power-user's) perspective, say in a year or two.

Take this gem in the iPhone/Neo1973 comparison chart : "Software can be created by normal users." Charmingly naive, no ?

Also some signatures in the active members are very reminiscent of the past Zaurus (and Linux on other PDAs) fragmentation and turf wars debacle, let's hope they do better here.

I do hope I'm totally wrong anyway -- but in a sort of altruistic way, because I'm too old to squint at a 640*480 2.8" screen :-)

Good points.

- ITT is indeed a source of feedback for Nokia. At least the hot topics are followed professionally, gathering the relevant points and forwarding them where appropriate. Then there is the people that follow ITT by own initiative, and eventually they take part in the discussion at their own risk.

- As for today I haven't connected texrat (or anybody else active here) with a Nokia name and role. Nor I have investigated. Therefore, I don't know and I can't evaluate about his/her success communicating internally.

- Yes, many times Nokia developers don't know or can't talk or even are not sure if they can talk about topics not under their own responsibility. Don't blame at them: they are professional developers putting a lot of compromise and passion beyond their contract and official objectives.

- Decision-making in Nokia is not always a simple process, as I guess it's not simple in any corporation (in fact is not simple in community projects either, but that's another topic). Just some (important) no-answers are caused directly by secrecy. Some no-answers correspond to no-decisions, and we prefer to keep silent while the decision is made (a process that sometimes might be long). Some no-answers happen because the question doesn't arrive to the person with the answer. Some no-answers happen because the answerer is pretty busy (sometimes fixing the issue questioned). We are trying to improve this, and the roadmap is our main tool.

- If you follow the process we have to answer. If we don't answer please insist once in our own channels. At least we should be able to tell you why we don't have an answer. Good questions deserve better answers.

- About gathering support for features (or bugs): never underestimate the voting feature at http://bugs.maemo.org . Mobilize your audience to vote on the features you want to push. Voting is easy for them. We do look at those numbers.

Just to clarify: I'm not a developer. My role is product manager of the maemo development platform. Improving the communication with developers and power users is one of my responsibilities. I'm the maintainer of http://maemo.org/intro/roadmap.html . I generally don't know the answers but I can help channeling questions to the right people.

As an example of the above:

- A2DP: http://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=667
- PAN: http://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1195
- OSS SIP client: dunno, please follow process and I'll investigate
- OS2007HE: http://maemo.org/news/view/1183720952.html

PS: we are in touch with OpenMoko (and OLPC) in the GNOME Mobile context and in other levels. They are cool and it is great that they exist. They help us being better, and we help them being as they are. However, since the organizations, business models and marketing strategies are totally different, comparing the hardware strategies is interesting... but that's it.

Just limit yourself to installing the finger applications. Otherwise, like you, I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

So I'll probably hang on to both my N800 and my P910 till at least November (assuming the beefed-up Neo1973 comes out in October as promised) and then see which one goes in the pool.

You hear that, Nokia? You have until November to get your act together (the P910 already works...).

Qgil's last post goes lightyears, IMO, toward addressing the number 1 concern here.

Maybe it needs to be stressed that most people here are adults. They know the world isn't black or white. They know that Nokia wil not always explain every minute detail, nor will the company give up trade secrets.

I daresay not one single person here expects that, nor do they expect Nokia employees to live in the forum.

So IMO the best way to bridge this alleged gap is through periodic frank, honest dialog that recognizes the intelligence and earnestness of parties on both sides and dispenses with any disingenuous dialog at all. I am heartened by ragnar and Qgil's posts. Just those few posts are worth more, IMO, than 90% of the blathering here... mine most certainly included.

I can't provide a boilerplate example of what improved communications would look like. I think that has to be hashed out, and I think it should. But the outreach this weekend was a helluva start, and proved me wrong in at least one way. I'd eagerly welcome more of that.

Thanks guys.

EDIT: and please keep in mind-- sometimes a simple "we can't answer that yet, hang on" is enough. ANything beats a no-answer. Again: this isn't black and white. We have an infinite palette to work with.

I wish Nokia could participate in this forum just as the TiVo, Slim Devices and Infrant guys (to name but three) participate in their forums to help nurture the community surrounding their products. I'm pretty sure their high profile (ie. web forum rather than low profile mailing list) involvement has resulted in a happier community and increased sales of devices. Many casual end users don't want to read or post to mailing lists and it's amazing how good the vibe can be when end users are able to communicate directly with the people that are behind their product.

While I appreciate a nokia.com member can't give away company secrets, I see little reason why a more informed and better connected Nokian can't assist members here with some of the issues that are raised through this forum. Many of us try to get other members to raise bugs or vote on existing bugs, but beyond that there is often little we can do to help as we often don't know all the answers!

Milhouse, note that your 3 examples belong to different categories: http://www.tivocommunity.com/ is an independent site while Slim Devices and Infrant forums are official. About the TiVo example, is that participation about user support or something else like unveiling future enhancements and discussing roadmapping stuff?

I still think the right place to have Nokia speakers talking about new stuff must be in Nokia/maemo spaces. If we come to ITT first then maemo followers will complain, and we can't perform well in both spaces (and if we do a third might come and ask to be "supported" as well).

We are going to open a web/forum interface to the maemo mailing lists, so everybody is happy. For instance, this is something that we haven't commented in maemo yet.

Yes, Mil, I've also seen forums where the companies were VERY heavily involved... and some (like Dell's and Creative's) where the purchasers were utterly ignored for the most part, and treated rudely when they were acknowledged. The latter doesn't help business.

I'm not sure why ragnar and Qgil feel they have to insert caveats about forum participation levels. That's a very narrow way of responding to a very broad request for occasional feedback/info/greetings/etc. ITT doesn't even have to be the venue for such dispensations-- posters here, as we all know, are very adept at sniffing out releases from wherever and ferrying them back here. I know I'm beating a dead horse, but the critical point here seems to be overlooked: a periodic "we are still alive!!!" on some official or semi-official outlet.

Also, as everyone here may know there has been some grumbling over reactions to bugs and feature requests at bugzilla. I've seen cases where user input was shut down pretty swift and hard, sometimes before the respondent really understood the post. That's not good. The customer is always right.

EDIT: Qgil beat me to posting. Hopefully mine answers his points effectively. If not I am always willing to work toward understanding.

Correct, the TiVo community web site is a more direct comparison but the point about all three remains the same - high levels of direct communication between end users and manufacturer/developer. On the TiVo site, TiVoPony is the Product Marketing Manager and way back when TiVo first started (circa 1999) he was the "evangelist" for the product, assisting with queries and problems but also promoting the community and bridging the void between end user and vendor. That community is now huge, and on the whole it's a happy one and I think their policy to evangelise the product through such a direct communication medium enabled the community to grow as rapidly as it did.

The Slim Devices and Infrant forums are slightly different, but it's rare that you find the product designer or CEO chipping into conversations as you do on the Slim Devices forum! Infrant is a very helpful site where the Infrant employees always try to give answers when users ask questions, even if it's "I don't know" or "I can't discuss that".

Announcements will filter down to the forum eventually as there are plenty of people here who read both maemo mailing lists, however I think the forum caters to a different audience than the mailing lists. This site is where your end users hang out, your paying customers... TiVo understood this! It might be tough to strike a balance between mailing list and forum, but I'm sure it should be possible.

Hopefully enough members of this forum will join up and post in the maemo users forum/mailing list, but beware of fragmentation - I still don't think it would be wise to ignore this place!

Hehe, I can imagine that could be bad for business!

And of course, poor customer service and a poor repair experience can also be bad for business, because that's what a number of us have endured when dealing with Nokia regarding 770 and N800s, and we often have little idea who to contact in order to help us. Quite often the only accurate advice new users get is when they visit _this_ site, and I gave up asking questions on the Nokia support forum where the N800 is sidelined in a "other devices" sub section with almost zero traffic of any substance.

If other Internet Tablet devices are launched in future (eg. Intel) and become supported by this forum then I wouldn't be surprised to see an Intel evangelist (or two) posting here from time to time. This site needs a Nokia evangelist - which does, I think, bring this thread full circle.