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fatalsaint is offline fatalsaint
2010-07-14 , 19:56
Posts: 3,428 | Thanked: 2,856 times | Joined on Jul 2008
#171
Originally Posted by danramos View Post
You're not really helping to argue against anything I just said in this debate. :P
I'm not arguing any side.

What I am saying is that MeeGo is a separate and independent entity. I am saying that yes, Nokia can do the same things they've always done using MeeGo as the base, and proprietizing everything on top.. and so can everyone else.

But that in no way limits, de-legitimizes, or affects MeeGo itself. Just Nokia's version of it.

The comment I quoted from you implies Nokia would cripple MeeGo.. that's like saying by Maemo being based on debian packages it cripples debian. That's not the case.

Debian is still alive and well and fine... Nokia's edition of it is ... somewhat lacking.
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wmarone is offline wmarone
2010-07-14 , 21:57
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#172
Originally Posted by danramos View Post
Having lived through the whole N800 era up to now, I'll believe it when I see it. I feel like I can no longer believe that Nokia wouldn't cripple it up like they have so far, even up to today.
And if they do, they're hanging themselves. That will (hopefully) have nothing to do with MeeGo proper.

So, once again, you're pointing out how Nokia isn't any different from any other not-really-open handset maker, and putting it on even keel with Android. Why bother with Meamo or MeeGo, if I can get better support from another hardware manufacturer and Android keeps getting fixed up and supported better and more often than the Maemo track record this far?
With hope, MeeGo will be able to move faster than Android as it pulls from numerous other sources, each of which providing far more focus on their part, rather than banking on a single provider for everything except the kernel.

And if you're a hardware vendor? You can say "MeeGo Powered" in an about box and place -your- branding all over instead of Google's. And maybe (just maybe) they could start pressing the US carriers to not demand exclusivity and crippling branding.

I thought Nokia had provided binary driver bits for Maemo before too. How did that work out? How was getting bugfixes and updates for them? Still seems hostile to open-source. Also, I highly recommend you read http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?s...00704191126134
Did I say that having the closed bits was OK? No, I said that it's unavoidable in the ARM space, and short of buying an Aava Mobile handset we aren't getting a fully open handset any time soon.

The best we can do is push it out of the core such that the OS is in no way crippled by its exclusion. Unlike, say, the closed bits of Maemo that make it useless without them or the example you cite. If anyone tries to push for that, you blame the handset manufacturer and don't buy their device. I'd rather not toss in the trash all of the work done by the open source community in exchange for a stack that was never meant to be open to begin with, just because it's got a tiny lead.

Believe me, I want an open device, top to bottom. But the way things are, it's a wash so I'll support a push for a handset OS that isn't controlled totally by a single entity and keep hounding hardware companies for open drivers.

Let's hope that turn into a genuine advantage--MeeGo is a new name, but having Nokia involved makes me wonder how much Maemo status quo will influence the end product and direction.
Hopefully MeeGo will see adoption by another handset vendor and Nokia's influence won't be felt.
 
cBeam is offline cBeam
2010-07-14 , 22:09
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#173
Not sure if this was already discussed (I do not like these monster threads):

There was a report on radio yesterday (marketplace). They talked about the iPhone 4 problems and that the next big competitor is coming. They said something like "... it is Google's new phone, the Droid X". Nowhere did they mention that Motorola (or is it HTC ???) is making the phone.

If Nokia goes Android, they would be just another commodity manufacturer (for better or worse).
 
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danramos is offline danramos
2010-07-14 , 22:26
Posts: 4,672 | Thanked: 5,455 times | Joined on Jul 2008 @ Springfield, MA, USA
#174
Originally Posted by wmarone View Post
And if they do, they're hanging themselves. That will (hopefully) have nothing to do with MeeGo proper.
Don't you think that Nokia has the potential to make MeeGo a failure? Will MeeGo proper run anywhere else where that won't be a problem, then?

Originally Posted by wmarone View Post
With hope, MeeGo will be able to move faster than Android as it pulls from numerous other sources, each of which providing far more focus on their part, rather than banking on a single provider for everything except the kernel.

And if you're a hardware vendor? You can say "MeeGo Powered" in an about box and place -your- branding all over instead of Google's. And maybe (just maybe) they could start pressing the US carriers to not demand exclusivity and crippling branding.
Considering you're also fighting Nokia's unbelievably source code closed-mindedness and the very likely push-back from carriers, how (please tell!) do you think this will go? Simply saying, "You can put 'MeeGo Powered' on your menu!" isn't a selling point--it needs to mean something that CUSTOMERS want, and the whole "your branding" is silly--anyone can already do that with Android. I've got Verizon apps on my Droid that came with it and it's clearly a Verizon phone. Let's not underestimate things with the carriers and competition, here.

Originally Posted by wmarone View Post
Did I say that having the closed bits was OK? No, I said that it's unavoidable in the ARM space, and short of buying an Aava Mobile handset we aren't getting a fully open handset any time soon.

I didn't say you said it was okay. I said, and I quote, "I thought Nokia had provided binary driver bits for Maemo before too. How did that work out? How was getting bugfixes and updates for them? Still seems hostile to open-source. Also, I highly recommend you read http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?s...00704191126134"

You clearly didn't bother to actually read what I said before you reacted and you didn't read the article... I'll address this in my next response below...

Originally Posted by wmarone View Post
The best we can do is push it out of the core such that the OS is in no way crippled by its exclusion.
And crippling is the whole problem. Your OS will either NOT run, or will not run reliably or well on every device that decides that "open core" is a great idea! Effectively, open-core is crippling. RTFA. :P

Originally Posted by wmarone View Post
Unlike, say, the closed bits of Maemo that make it useless without them or the example you cite. If anyone tries to push for that, you blame the handset manufacturer and don't buy their device. I'd rather not toss in the trash all of the work done by the open source community in exchange for a stack that was never meant to be open to begin with, just because it's got a tiny lead.
Well, given Nokia's trend so far, it doesn't sound like they'll be selling like hotcakes. I'm not sure why Nokia is involved. They OWNED that whole process in Maemo. I'm not sure why you think MeeGo will be a success if it's being based around Nokia's crappy choices of open-source hostile components.

Originally Posted by wmarone View Post
Believe me, I want an open device, top to bottom. But the way things are, it's a wash so I'll support a push for a handset OS that isn't controlled totally by a single entity and keep hounding hardware companies for open drivers.
Hopefully MeeGo will see adoption by another handset vendor and Nokia's influence won't be felt.
And there's "the thing." I don't have a lot of faith in MeeGo until I see someone else involved. Nokia has been an utter disappointment. If Nokia was a guy, I would have kicked his legs out and repeatedly kicked him in the ribs, for the way they've made me feel as a repeat customer of their crap over the last couple of years. I'm only glad I'm not THAT dependent on their products, despite their attempts through crippling. I wish they'd concentrate on making the products we WANT and supporting their customers.

Good luck to MeeGo. If I had to wager, though, my guess is that it'll fade away to obscurity like a lot of similar attempts (uLinux, we hardly knew ya! Yopi was cute. Maemo.. well, you made a good first impression and then you got really ugly and mean.). heh
 
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danramos is offline danramos
2010-07-14 , 22:28
Posts: 4,672 | Thanked: 5,455 times | Joined on Jul 2008 @ Springfield, MA, USA
#175
Originally Posted by cBeam View Post
Not sure if this was already discussed (I do not like these monster threads):

There was a report on radio yesterday (marketplace). They talked about the iPhone 4 problems and that the next big competitor is coming. They said something like "... it is Google's new phone, the Droid X". Nowhere did they mention that Motorola (or is it HTC ???) is making the phone.

If Nokia goes Android, they would be just another commodity manufacturer (for better or worse).
Versus.. what? The continuing downward trend toward failure, like now? If Nokia produced Android phones in addition to MeeGo, they would at least be competing and making sure their brand was relevant. SELL THE CUSTOMERS WHAT THEY WANT. Is that really so hard to understand?
 

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wmarone is offline wmarone
2010-07-14 , 23:06
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#176
Originally Posted by danramos View Post
Don't you think that Nokia has the potential to make MeeGo a failure?
Considering that Intel is pushing it along with Nokia, I don't see how. At this point anyone can grab it and move forward, doing effectively all the same work they have to do with Android now, minus having to depend on Google to continue development.

Considering you're also fighting Nokia's unbelievably source code closed-mindedness
Which has no bearing on MeeGo, since they can't retroactively close anything that's part of the OS. If you're talking about hardware, then we can be noisy or pick a manufacturer who will listen.

and the very likely push-back from carriers
Which is why exclusivity is bad for consumers.

Simply saying, "You can put 'MeeGo Powered' on your menu!" isn't a selling point--it needs to mean something that CUSTOMERS want
Hold on. Stop. It's a selling point for the VENDOR to use the OS. The -only- thing the end user cares about is that the device does what it is supposed to, and has a means of installing software.
"MeeGo Powered" just states a level of compatibility.

and the whole "your branding" is silly--anyone can already do that with Android.
And they also have to slather it with Google branding. IIRC, Intel's AppUp is serviced by a common back-end, with the front-end brandable by the vendor.

Good luck to MeeGo. If I had to wager, though, my guess is that it'll fade away to obscurity like a lot of similar attempts
Possibly. I certainly hope not.

uLinux, we hardly knew ya!
uLinux? Do you mean ucLinux, which is still quite popular for embedded applications, aimed more at microcontrollers than PDAs and phones?

Yopi was cute.
It also happened ten years ago. Everything has picked up steam since then.

All I've heard is "Android was there first, it wins, stop bothering. Oh and Nokia sucks." I'm tired of arguing against naysayers and people who conflate Nokia with MeeGo. I'd rather not end up with Google and Apple in control of mobile computing, but if you're OK with that, then by all means.

Originally Posted by danramos View Post
If Nokia produced Android phones in addition to MeeGo, they would be defeating the entire point of creating and using MeeGo
That's more accurate.

SELL THE CUSTOMERS WHAT THEY WANT.?
But I don't WANT Android. I'm sure many people who bought the N900 didn't want Android either, or they would have jumped on the DROID or Nexus One.
 
fatalsaint is offline fatalsaint
2010-07-14 , 23:14
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#177
Originally Posted by danramos View Post
And there's "the thing." I don't have a lot of faith in MeeGo until I see someone else involved. Nokia has been an utter disappointment.
And again I'm just popping in for a random thought:

I've seen, from an end user perspective, more Intel than Nokia in everything MeeGo to-date.

Intel's handset platform is the official platform, it actually works(!!!!!!), and has flashable images. On the N900.. we have to build and compile our own.

Intels UI is used on Netbooks.

A rather similar look and feel is used for the official Handset UX.

The Nokia N900 doesn't even have proper backlight controlling with MeeGo without hacking it.

So: While I am positive work has been done by Nokia for MeeGo... as an advanced power-user trying to test out the new stuff: The only stuff I can see... looks like Intel has had the most push into MeeGo.

Looking at what works in the AAVA Intel Handset videos of the current MeeGo vs what works on my N900 is about like looking at the iPhone or Android's phone app compared to the bolted-on-phone app in Maemo. The Nokia N900 in all cases that I can tell is but an afterthought in this process so far.
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Last edited by fatalsaint; 2010-07-14 at 23:18.
 

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gerbick
2010-07-14 , 23:20
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#178
Why would seeing more Intel than Nokia be a positive thing? It's not like they pushed Moblin.
 

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attila77 is offline attila77
2010-07-14 , 23:20
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#179
Originally Posted by fatalsaint View Post
Ubuntu is Debian. It's just debian modified, more-so than most phones will be from MeeGo. It would be like, if Ubuntu used debian's own repo's and just setup sudo-packages to pre-install certain configurations.

That is how I see MeeGo operating.

The MeeGo we get from phone to phone is likely to have a very different user experience. Somewhat like the HTC Sense UI vs MotoBlur vs ... the Nook.

And some (or most) of those experiences can and likely will be very proprietary and unable to screw with.
That is not how MeeGo is operating. Certain vendors, sure (but didn't we have bastardized Linux distros with TiVo, Archos, etc ?), but that's a different story. 'Cause no matter what Ubuntu does, it can only go so far from Debian without cutting it's umbilical cord, unlike Maemo, which has drifted halfway across the universe from Debian in the same timeframe. MeeGo will try to establish itself as the rock everybody builds on, and that's the best it can do (seriously, it's Free - the make-them-all-use-what-you-say-to-the-letter is Windows Phone 7 land).

Just because MeeGo goes the way of, say, pulseaudio or alsa or whatever, doesn't mean the end phone based on MeeGo needs to.
'Based on MeeGo' != MeeGo. If it doesn't have the required stuff, you can call it whatever you want, but it's not MeeGo.

They can have their own proprietary system in there if they want. Our current issue in Maemo with the audio system is it's not documented, and the core media apps are closed right? Nothing is stopping Nokia from doing this all over again with their phone based on MeeGo.

MeeGo is just the basic OS.. everything on top of that will be up to the discretion of the manufacturer. Unless you're telling me that the Linux Foundation is going to start requiring people using MeeGo to abide by certain rules to using their OS....
I'm telling you that. It is the reason some people are still kicking themselves because they don't know how to call Harmattan without shooting MeeGo in the foot on one side or shooting Harmattan in on the other.

Originally Posted by danramos View Post
Versus.. what? The continuing downward trend toward failure, like now? If Nokia produced Android phones in addition to MeeGo, they would at least be competing and making sure their brand was relevant. SELL THE CUSTOMERS WHAT THEY WANT. Is that really so hard to understand?
Even if we forego the usual short-sightedness of customers being totally clueless as to what lead times are, production of Android phones IN ADDITION to MeeGo is the silliest idea of them all. MeeGo is the direct competitor of Android, even official Nokia material/people say that. How do you push your platform by shipping devices with the platform you want to capture market share FROM ? It's like saying RedHat should sell Windows Server licenses/services too because customers want that.
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w00t is offline w00t
2010-07-14 , 23:23
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#180
Originally Posted by fatalsaint View Post
MeeGo is just the basic OS.. everything on top of that will be up to the discretion of the manufacturer. Unless you're telling me that the Linux Foundation is going to start requiring people using MeeGo to abide by certain rules to using their OS....
No, that's precisely the way it will be I think, and personally I'd rather not have it any other way.

We have a chance to make our offering compelling enough for people to want to use it *more than* the proprietary offerings - work on that, and let market forces do their work..
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