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2014-04-09
, 21:09
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Posts: 915 |
Thanked: 3,209 times |
Joined on Jan 2011
@ Germany
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#1832
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I've been pondering over this for some time now and I'm still hesitant to mention it publicly, but considering you promised to be very open about the info you publish about this project I decided to bring it up nevertheless.
I stumbled upon indications that this project has been for some time and is still suffering from some serious organisational problems - in an amount that puts the whole project at stake. I won't go into further detail here since I consider this to be your very own business.
From what I gathered there is no trivial way to solve these problems (as in: "let's all be friends and have a talk"), so I won't even begin to make some wise-assed suggestions for solutions. (I had none, even if I wanted.)
I merely request you to walk the talk and be as open as you promised to be, not only when it comes to technical, but also to organisational matters.
Given the current circumstances. please give us a realistic estimation about the chances for the Neo900 to become real!
@dos1: I personally would prefer if you would do this, since I believe you can provide the most unbiased answer. And I'm totally aware that a good answer will probably not be possible within a day or two.
I stumbled upon indications that this project has been for some time and is still suffering from some serious organisational problems - in an amount that puts the whole project at stake. I won't go into further detail here since I consider this to be your very own business.
From what I gathered there is no trivial way to solve these problems (as in: "let's all be friends and have a talk"), so I won't even begin to make some wise-assed suggestions for solutions. (I had none, even if I wanted.)
I merely request you to walk the talk and be as open as you promised to be, not only when it comes to technical, but also to organisational matters.
Given the current circumstances. please give us a realistic estimation about the chances for the Neo900 to become real!
@dos1: I personally would prefer if you would do this, since I believe you can provide the most unbiased answer. And I'm totally aware that a good answer will probably not be possible within a day or two.
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2014-04-09
, 21:42
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Posts: 2,222 |
Thanked: 12,651 times |
Joined on Mar 2010
@ SOL 3
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#1833
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Nope, no problems of the kind you think you detected. Only the usual panic mode for a few days when we have to deal with tax advisers, lawyers, bankers, institutions, whatnot else. It takes some time to calm down again, get all that mess out of our heads or at least sorted in a way technical people are used to, and then come up with the solution to the maze those circumstances build up for a young project.
Don't worry, I don't see the project on peril by any of that. Worst thing to happen: I might need a 6 weeks offtime on an island without electricity and internet, and this might happen soon. ;-) A realistic estimation about the chances for the Neo900 to become real... Let me put it this way: I invested roundabout 9 man-months into this already, and I want this device to use it, so it's probably save to assume I won't let down on this project until it finally succeeds. "Technically" the sourcing of N900 parts is the most challenging task we need to accomplish, and I can't think of much other mishaps to throw sticks at our feet now. From a commercial aspect the estimation about number of parts to source and number of boards we can and should build is the hugest uncertain factor. We'll eventually have to start another campaign to get better estimations in this regard. For now I like to think that there are a lot more potential customers out there than the 350 donors we got so far, and that we will hear from them when we show our first working prototype.
The planned transfer of donations to Neo900 UG seen some concerns by tax advisers (same advisers who formerly said "sure, go ahead" :-/ ), thus we had to come up with another more complex solution. It seems we're close to finalizing this solution, end of this week the latest there should be some news about our plan-B. Boring stuff, and tedious. When the original plan had the beauty of simplicity, this plan-B lacks that beauty due to a lot of "fineprint". I don't think elaborating on it would be much entertainment for any of you. But it needs to get done.
Looking forward to do real engineering soon again. :-)
cheers
jOERG
Last edited by joerg_rw; 2014-04-09 at 23:39.
Don't worry, I don't see the project on peril by any of that. Worst thing to happen: I might need a 6 weeks offtime on an island without electricity and internet, and this might happen soon. ;-) A realistic estimation about the chances for the Neo900 to become real... Let me put it this way: I invested roundabout 9 man-months into this already, and I want this device to use it, so it's probably save to assume I won't let down on this project until it finally succeeds. "Technically" the sourcing of N900 parts is the most challenging task we need to accomplish, and I can't think of much other mishaps to throw sticks at our feet now. From a commercial aspect the estimation about number of parts to source and number of boards we can and should build is the hugest uncertain factor. We'll eventually have to start another campaign to get better estimations in this regard. For now I like to think that there are a lot more potential customers out there than the 350 donors we got so far, and that we will hear from them when we show our first working prototype.
The planned transfer of donations to Neo900 UG seen some concerns by tax advisers (same advisers who formerly said "sure, go ahead" :-/ ), thus we had to come up with another more complex solution. It seems we're close to finalizing this solution, end of this week the latest there should be some news about our plan-B. Boring stuff, and tedious. When the original plan had the beauty of simplicity, this plan-B lacks that beauty due to a lot of "fineprint". I don't think elaborating on it would be much entertainment for any of you. But it needs to get done.
Looking forward to do real engineering soon again. :-)
cheers
jOERG
Last edited by joerg_rw; 2014-04-09 at 23:39.
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2014-04-09
, 22:43
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Posts: 257 |
Thanked: 2,053 times |
Joined on Sep 2010
@ Warsaw, Poland
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#1834
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Originally Posted by sulu
Not really, I get most of my info from Joerg, so I'm probably biased by both his point of view and lack of parts of information that simply haven't been passed to me.
@dos1: I personally would prefer if you would do this, since I believe you can provide the most unbiased answer.
While there are some unavoidable "moments of crisis and uncertainty", so far they seem to get resolved (or on their way to be resolved) before there's need to take any major actions. I think I know from which IRC channel you got that info
but rest assured that it mostly represents the state of one stressed out mind at particular moment and shouldn't be extrapolated to the overall health of the project, especially when such rants can be easily influenced by personal situation, mood, health... well, actually anything.You're right that we have promised to be open and I hope that we're staying true to those promises in eyes of all of you, but I think personal rants about non-technical obstacles aren't great candidates to be published via official channels of communication, as they can easily make completely wrong impression when taken out of context. That's why I won't point to any of those rants here, even if they are easily available in public IRC logs :P
In case of major threat to the fate of the project we're of course going to announce it. We just won't warn publicly about every possible dangerous thing, because otherwise this thread would quickly turn into series of "project on hold, ABORT MISSION; oh, wait, actually it's fine; NO, RED ALARM, NO WAY TO CONTINU... sorry, turns out it's all fine again!" - and that certainly wouldn't help anyone
From my personal, a bit "outsiderish" point of view (thankfully I don't need to be part of most of this legal stuff!) it just seems like making business is a bit like tackling major engineering problem. You often get to the point when you don't see any way to solve a problem that's stopping you from progressing, but then suddenly, after few hours/days/weeks of resignation, you get an "eureka" moment on how to tackle it
__________________
Sebastian Krzyszkowiak - https://dosowisko.net/
Long term Openmoko supporter. Owner of two Neo Freerunners, a few N900s and some others too.
Future owner of the Neo900
Sebastian Krzyszkowiak - https://dosowisko.net/
Long term Openmoko supporter. Owner of two Neo Freerunners, a few N900s and some others too.
Future owner of the Neo900
Last edited by dos1; 2014-04-09 at 22:48.
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2014-04-10
, 05:36
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Posts: 915 |
Thanked: 3,209 times |
Joined on Jan 2011
@ Germany
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#1835
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Originally Posted by joerg_rw
Please keep us informed!
The planned transfer of donations to Neo900 UG seen some concerns by tax advisers (same advisers who formerly said "sure, go ahead" :-/ ), thus we had to come up with another more complex solution. It seems we're close to finalizing this solution, end of this week the latest there should be some news about our plan-B.
Originally Posted by dos1
I see it the same way. So an information policy similar to the one you had with the display connectors would be nice.
it just seems like making business is a bit like tackling major engineering problem. You often get to the point when you don't see any way to solve a problem that's stopping you from progressing, but then suddenly, after few hours/days/weeks of resignation, you get an "eureka" moment on how to tackle it
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2014-04-10
, 06:02
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Posts: 6,447 |
Thanked: 20,981 times |
Joined on Sep 2012
@ UK
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#1836
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Originally Posted by joerg_rw
Is that why I have not yet received the email(s) mentioned here? I am expecting a few, for me and all the proxy orders.
The planned transfer of donations to Neo900 UG seen some concerns by tax advisers (same advisers who formerly said "sure, go ahead" :-/ ), thus we had to come up with another more complex solution.
It seems we're close to finalizing this solution, end of this week the latest there should be some news about our plan-B. Boring stuff, and tedious. When the original plan had the beauty of simplicity, this plan-B lacks that beauty due to a lot of "fineprint". I don't think elaborating on it would be much entertainment for any of you. But it needs to get done.
OK, let's wait for Plan B.
__________________
Русский военный корабль, иди нахуй!
Русский военный корабль, иди нахуй!
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2014-04-10
, 06:10
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Posts: 66 |
Thanked: 46 times |
Joined on Apr 2014
@ Penang, Malaysia
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#1837
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From Malaysia
I'm really looking forward to this.
Hope it will all go well. Really, in this age, it is very very hard to see a
"Made in Germany" label
I'm really looking forward to this.
Hope it will all go well. Really, in this age, it is very very hard to see a
"Made in Germany" label
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2014-04-10
, 10:10
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Posts: 257 |
Thanked: 2,053 times |
Joined on Sep 2010
@ Warsaw, Poland
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#1839
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Originally Posted by sulu
The difference is that the display connector was literally a roadblock on the only available road, which was impossible to workaround unless someone moved it away. So we basically had "we need connectors" issue, then long long long time of nothing until finally it was found. The community could very easily help, the problem was clearly defined and anyone with needed knowledge could participate.
I see it the same way. So an information policy similar to the one you had with the display connectors would be nice.
Here the problem is different. This is more like a maze, where you often carefully make small steps forward - but eventually you find a blind valley and you have to go backwards a bit and take a different route. Sometimes you feel lost and after many blind alleys one after another it's easy to loose motivation and become frustrated, but then when you finally back on track again, the motivation returns and you're going forward again
From my perspective, all this stuff is simply too volatile too describe properly in a "official way". What we would have written today could be easily out of date tomorrow. It's not worth it IMO. I think we were once close to announce something that appeared like a big showstopper, but fortunately it was overcomed just in time. All this stuff basically sums up to what Joerg wrote few posts above - even if it doesn't sound really compilcated from his short description, in details it sometimes starts to be. Showstoppers are usually like "we don't see the way to maitain it all in proper way", until there's "oh ok, there is a solution", and unlike with display connector, different showstoppers keep appearing and disappearing all the time. Unless they stop to disappear, I'd say that everything is fine
(btw. what I have written here is just my personal point of view, we haven't settled on any "policy" like that, so if Joerg tells me "from now on write everything I tell you into status updates" I'll do it
)
__________________
Sebastian Krzyszkowiak - https://dosowisko.net/
Long term Openmoko supporter. Owner of two Neo Freerunners, a few N900s and some others too.
Future owner of the Neo900
Sebastian Krzyszkowiak - https://dosowisko.net/
Long term Openmoko supporter. Owner of two Neo Freerunners, a few N900s and some others too.
Future owner of the Neo900
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2014-04-14
, 21:46
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Posts: 2,222 |
Thanked: 12,651 times |
Joined on Mar 2010
@ SOL 3
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#1840
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Originally Posted by dos1
Yes, a pretty good characterization. And, as promised, we're again "on our track" and working on another alternative to organize internal stuff. Which will have zero visibility resp impact to our "customers". IOW probably nothing will change at all for all of you, no mails will get sent to you asking you to confirm anything. The project will just progress as usual.
[...]Sometimes you feel lost and after many blind alleys one after another it's easy to lose motivation and become frustrated, but then when you finally back on track again, the motivation returns and you're going forward again
Originally Posted by dos1
Nah, all fine!
(btw. what I have written here is just my personal point of view, we haven't settled on any "policy" like that, so if Joerg tells me "from now on write everything I tell you into status updates" I'll do it
I'm just announcing on my own behalf that I need a downtime of a few weeks to recover from the unusual and nasty workload I had to cope with during the last few weeks (months? and not all of that related to the project).
Project is fine and almost on schedule, Nikolaus is about to develop protoboard rev2 as planned and announced. I'm looking forward to being back and contributing at a 100% level in a few weeks.
cheers
jOERG
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Last edited by joerg_rw; 2014-04-08 at 20:14.