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#11
I need GPS/navigation (not the turn-by-turn directions, just the "show me where I am and let me follow along so I figure out where to walk to or when the bus is approaching the stop I need to get off at")

I need public transport journey planning (but any phone I buy should come with a web browser good enough that I can use the online journey planner and not need the official app or the Fahrplan thing I was using on the N900)

I need calls and SMS (but not MMS).

I need a decent web browser (so I can e.g. access my web email on the go, google for stuff, look up the address and phone number of business, look up the prices of stuff online etc)

I need calculator (so I can do basic calculations when I need to) and camera/photos (both as a reminder if I am looking at something and want to remember that thing and as a way to take a quick photo of something and then email it or otherwise share it)

I need notes (so I can make notes of things I want to remember)

I need time/date (since my phone is how I check what time and day it is)

I need 4G on 2100/1800/850.

I need decent battery life

I need a phone that isn't full of unremovable bloatware.

I need a phone (Android, Linux or otherwise) that is in compliance with the GPL and all the other software licenses they need to comply with (I refuse to give my money to anyone who is knowingly profiting off copyright violations by not releasing the GPL'd kernel source or releasing incomplete or incorrect source)

I need a phone that's usable as a daily driver and not something where you need to do lower level things or poke around in the bowels of the OS just to do the normal stuff.

The nice-to-have-but-not-essential features:
Physical keyboard (gotten used to the one on my N900)

Some decent free (100% free, no microtransactions or other crap) games available to play on the device when e.g. I am on a bus or otherwise out and about and have time I want to kill.

Something that has decent privacy protections (i.e. not loaded down with spyware and crapware in the way most phones)

Something that will continue to get support going forward (OS updates etc)

Something that is hackable in the way the N900 is hackable (i.e. not full of binary blobs getting in the way)

Something that doesn't cost a thousand dollars or more and that isn't going to take 6 months or something before I can get one here in Brisbane, Australia.
 

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#12
@jonwil if you are willing to forgo the physical keyboard then just about any Sony X-and-derivatives-lineup device with SFOS would tick all the boxes.
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#13
Thanks for this detailed list it's excellent!

- GPS/navigation (I have yet to get it working, but have only tried once.)

- public transport journey planning (will need to rely on the browser for now most likely, I hven’t seen any transportation apps .. but have not looked)

- ✓ calls & SMS (but not MMS).

- ✓ decent web browser (firefox and now chrome if you like that)

- ✓ calculator

- ✓ notes (lots of different note apps already)

- ✓ time/date (time and date on the lock screen, but alarms are not great yet under some OS)

- ✓ 4G on 2100/1800/850. (works good on tmobile us)

- ✓ decent battery life (will depend on the kernal and OS, but I seen ppl post about 2 1/2 days on one charge)

- ✓ bloatware. (most you can delete anything you want)

- ✓ compliance with the GPL (OS dependant)

- daily driver (too subjective to comment on)


The nice-to-have-but-not-essential features:

- ✓ Physical keyboard (fx pro1 {used maybe], one of the gemini phones)

- ✓ free games (too subjective to comment on, also I don’t really play games. But many emulators already)

- ✓ privacy protections

- future OS support (if it open source then there is a chance of future updates, but never a guarantee of course)

- ✓ hackable (mostly depending on OS)

- ✓ doesn't cost a thousand dollars or taking 6 to receive (the sony phone are a good suggestion, but there seems to be some other Chinese brands that are getting some support for other OS on them)


So if I was you (you didn’t give top budget price) I would grab either a sony phone drop sailfish on it which will also get you an official android layer to use those apps you need, a used fx pro1 must exist, A gemini (too big for me), or a Chinese brand.

You have many options

A lot of your needs will depend on which OS/distro you want to use. In my opion your realistic choices are sailfish, android, ubports, on the Pinephone manjaro or mobian for basic phone needs.

So have you put together a list of potential devices and OSs yet?

Edit:
Looks like they have a few PinePhone Manjaro left for dec delivery

x

Last edited by xman; 2020-12-08 at 15:38.
 

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#14
Originally Posted by jonwil View Post
I need a phone (Android, Linux or otherwise) that is in compliance with the GPL and all the other software licenses they need to comply with (I refuse to give my money to anyone who is knowingly profiting off copyright violations by not releasing the GPL'd kernel source or releasing incomplete or incorrect source)
In that case, you're screwed.

I don't think any device on the market fulfills that requirement. Maybe the Librem5. However, I suspect its modem firmware is a bust, since it's allowed by the FCC in the US. I'd assume it's either completely proprietary or violates GPL. ;-P

The Pinephone is a no-go, as it uses Allwinner A64. The modem firmware is also an absolute nightmare.

EDIT: I think all the relevant stuff for the A64 has been reverse-engineered by community, but the upstream vendor for the SoC itself vioates GPL. Pine64 chose the A64 becuse it's cheap and has good mainline kernel support, thus Allwinner's evils are largely irrelevant.
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Last edited by preflex; 2020-12-08 at 04:05.
 

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#15
There are no options checking all the items in your list, you'll have to sacrifice some of them if you want the device now. The requirements that are most difficult to fulfill are hackability, full openness (even the Pinephone doesn't fully comply, as detailed by Preflex) and waiting/shipping time.

The Pinephone is a very nice device with a lot of hackability and OSes will improve, but so far they still need users to be quite flexible as to what they can do and to which level they are prepared to skew their usecase to adapt to current limitations. It's cheap and will ship every few weeks, reliably.

The Pro1 is on the way to mainline and its form factor means there's a niche community behind it to port OSes and support it on the long term, pretty much like the N900. It's hackable with open bootloader and one dev is close to achieving multiboot on it. It's significantly more powerful than the Pinephone and smaller in height and width, just a bit thicker. Its keyboard and performance make it a good device to run desktop Linux in chroot or LXC. Progress is being done towards mainlining on this SOC so Leste and pmOS may happen in the future, but that will require some patience; until then current feature complete Linux OSes include Sailfish and Ubuntu (not sure GPS works on Ubuntu though). It's the closest to the N900 and has some repairability, but ships in 3 to 4 months, so you'd need another phone in the mean time. And yes, the Pro1x is a crowdfunding device, but I'd still recommend it over the Pro1 from the store because lead time for the latter is not really known. The company has a good track record and they have already produced the same phone (Pro1) in the past, so the main risk is delays (a real risk since they do "first come first serve" and there are 1000 buyers in queue), but not cancellation. But waiting until March may be unacceptable in your situation. If you can find a used Pro1, that might work, but I'm afraid most of them would be on eBay so that's a no go. Now may be a good time to check for used ones on the forum though, since some users may sell their Pro1 (still powerful enough) soon to upgrade to the Pro1x. I'm currently uploading a Ubuntu Touch vs SailfishOS video for this device, should be available later today. [Edit] Here: https://youtu.be/rgxrJj37xOs.

Xperia X and variants running Sailfish, but this will again come with some trade-offs regarding your list. They can ship whenever you can find a used or reconditionned Xperia; there may still be some new units in online stores too.

Last edited by Kabouik; 2020-12-09 at 01:12.
 

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#16
Originally Posted by jonwil View Post
I need a phone [...] that is in compliance with the GPL [...]
There goes that infamous "need" again.

You do not need such a phone. You want such a phone. There is a difference.

The world would be a much better place if people (in general, all of them, not just you) stopped passing their "wants" as their "needs".
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#17
I suppose in this instance it's explained that it's mandatory and the reasons for that, so if "want" or "need" is used correctly is just semantics, although I do see where your coming from.
More important for decussion is if that's a possible option, which as pointed out I don't believe so to get approval, this was talked about for Neo.

An option that hasn't been pitched is to make do with a cheap "dumb" phone or if must android device in the short term? At least until devices tick more of your boxes.
I am hopeful Pine with keyboard will be the right option for me in future.
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#18
What I mean by GPL is that the manufacturer of the phone is following copyright law and releasing all the source code that they are required to release. If the license for a piece of software they are using (including things like the modem firmware) doesn't require them to publish the source code, that's fine.

Its when a company is required by the license to publish source code (say GPL for the Linux kernel) but doesn't public that required source code (or that publishes source code that doesn't match the binaries they are shipping) that I get annoyed.

I am saying that I refuse to buy a phone from a company who profits off \copyright violations by shipping binaries (Linux kernel and otherwise) and not releasing the source code that the license for those binaries requires them to release. I would be saying exactly the same thing if a manufacturer was including a copy of the latest Star Wars film on a device without permission from Disney and profiting off copyright violations that way.

Its one of my principles that I wont support companies who profit off copyright violation (among other reasons why I have a list of companies I refuse to do business with)
 

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#19
Reading this thread (well it could be any Os related thread here) and then reading this: How many linux users are needed to change a lightbulp. https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/users-lightbulb.html

Have to say that linux users learn a lot before the lightbulp gets changed.
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#20
Originally Posted by jonwil View Post
What I mean by GPL is that the manufacturer of the phone is following copyright law and releasing all the source code that they are required to release. If the license for a piece of software they are using (including things like the modem firmware) doesn't require them to publish the source code, that's fine.

Its when a company is required by the license to publish source code (say GPL for the Linux kernel) but doesn't public that required source code (or that publishes source code that doesn't match the binaries they are shipping) that I get annoyed.

I am saying that I refuse to buy a phone from a company who profits off \copyright violations by shipping binaries (Linux kernel and otherwise) and not releasing the source code that the license for those binaries requires them to release. I would be saying exactly the same thing if a manufacturer was including a copy of the latest Star Wars film on a device without permission from Disney and profiting off copyright violations that way.

Its one of my principles that I wont support companies who profit off copyright violation (among other reasons why I have a list of companies I refuse to do business with)
Pinephone and Librem5 both seem to be compatible with your ethical standards. If you want to get a Pinephone next month, you should order soon, as their small batches tend to sell out long before they ship.
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