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	Venemo	2010-06-11 , 16:26
	Posts: 1,296 \| Thanked: 1,773 times \| Joined on Aug 2009 @ Budapest, Hungary	#11

As I said in this thread also, I completely agree with Texrat on this stuff.
I also expressed my opinion in a comment on his blog.

Something else:

What I don't really understand is why does Nokia hold to their closed-source stuff so much?
I mean, they could do as Intel already does.

Their money come from hardware sales, so they could afford to give out the software freely.

A competitor would use the product for their own advantage? Great! More people using Nokia software, more apps for Nokia devices! Why is this a problem?
If the drivers would be open source, WHAT would happen? Other people could easily port and use different OS's, and that could be a selling point. Also, the manufacturer of my laptop doesn't care what OS I install on it. Why does Nokia?
Closed-source components - what's the point? They failed to obey their own UI specification and didn't "hildonize" their own apps - there would be people willing to correct this for free... but NOOOOOOO...
About Flash: I don't really care about it, but if it is WORKING (as demonstrated by Adobe), why don't they include it in an update? It would increase sales, and I fail to see why is that good for them.
4 words: Release early, release often - why can't they update the apps and packages on the device independently? The apt package manager could handle that

It seems to me that they don't really want to sell one of their product... which is financially bad for them, so... why?

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fatalsaint	2010-06-11 , 16:30
Posts: 3,428 \| Thanked: 2,856 times \| Joined on Jul 2008	#12

The problem is Woot.. I don't know how long you've been in the Maemo arena: But we've heard all those promises before.

Especially regarding the people working on the teams to brings the various operating systems to device X to keep it alive for the next Generation.

And yes, When the last official update for the N8x0 (diablo) was 2 years ago I consider the platform dead. We held on for a very long time under the "promise" of a Fremantle port, because Nokia was going to help us!, called Mer. It was a failure. I don't blame anybody for that specifically, I don't point at Stskeeps (the face of Mer) and say he did everything wrong and screwed up. But the fact is it died, will not be realized, and failed. We were let down.

If/when MeeGo becomes functional on the N8x0 (I know there is work being done on that) - that is not argument to say the N8x0 is still alive.. that's a resurrection of a dead platform. Sure, 2 years later, the people still grasping to their wonderful old Tablets will rejoice once again...

Or they won't... because some unforeseen thing, yet again, makes it "impossible" to port.

So, while I applaud your enthusiasm woot, I get the feeling this is the first time you went through this drill.

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

At this point I'm taking what I got and being as happy as I can with it.. without expecting too much from the future till I actually see it.

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	hordeman	2010-06-11 , 16:31
	Posts: 698 \| Thanked: 129 times \| Joined on Oct 2007 @ CA	#13

My issue is this: when my n810 reaches the point where it can't run anything useful due to being too slow, there is nothing for me to upgrade to (as far as I am aware of). The n900's screen is too small, and I don't know of anything on the market that comes close to doing the same thing as close or as well as the n8x0.

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	qwerty12	2010-06-11 , 16:35
	Posts: 4,274 \| Thanked: 5,358 times \| Joined on Sep 2007 @ Looking at y'all and sighing	#14

Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles

Is Nokia, as a company, really capable of properly developing, deploying and supporting an open product[...]

I hope they do better with the next device. They've failed to put out an open product thus far.

I mean, I can SFTP in as root, replace /usr/bin/rtcom-call-ui.launch with one I just modified and built in Scratchbox. No, wait, I can't replace that file with my own; /usr/bin/rtcom-call-ui.launch is just one of many closed components (under Nokia's control) to be found on the N900.

Last edited by qwerty12; 2010-06-11 at 16:41.

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	w00t	2010-06-11 , 16:40
	Posts: 1,055 \| Thanked: 4,107 times \| Joined on Oct 2009 @ Norway	#15

Originally Posted by fatalsaint

So I knew that, at least in some capacity, MeeGo would come... but it's still upsetting to see that at best we'll get a mostly functional dev-build.

Again, the prematurity.. It's too early to say *what* is going to come, given there is no UX yet. Once it's there, then well, we'll have more of an idea whether it'll be totally unusable or not, but I suspect that actually, it will probably not be that bad.

Originally Posted by fatalsaint

Maemo 5, the best edition of Maemo that I've had so far (started with Chinook), was alive for about 3 months after the N900 was released and then immediately crashed when they started saying that a bunch of things would not be fixed in M5 but instead wait for Harmattan, and then saying Harmattan is not coming to the N900.

That's not my recollection.

Granted, I don't go trawling the tracker constantly, but the issues that I've found are usually fixed. Not always in a timely manner, but they are fixed.

Do you have a reference for things marked FiH? Because I'm not able to find anything except for a list of about 10 items long, which given that, can't be correct.

Looking at: http://wiki.maemo.org/What_can_we_re..._Harmattan_.3F
the pace on M5 seems to be keeping fairly regular, at least.

Originally Posted by fatalsaint

Then they gave hope, yet again, by the announcement of MeeGo. Maybe Harmattan wasn't coming to the N900 because we would get MeeGo? Sadly, no.

What, exactly, do you want from Nokia? They're putting effort into getting MeeGo on there.

Do you want 'commercial support'? (i.e, the ability to be able to call Nokia Care for support)? I suspect, given your technical background, that isn't the case. The same for a lot of other people who I see making comments like this. So I really can't understand what you mean.

Originally Posted by fatalsaint

.. but no matter how good the "compatibility" layer will be, it still won't be MeeGo.

If you're talking about application developers here, then if they stick to the path that has been officially mentioned numerous times for a long while (i.e. Qt, QtMobility APIs), then they should be fine, regardless of what the OS is. The whole point of a cross platform framework is that it doesn't matter what OS you're working on.

Originally Posted by fatalsaint

Unless they come up with a seriously killer automated system that RPM's added to MeeGo's repo's are automatically grabbed, unpackaged, repackaged into DEB, and uploaded to Harmattan's Repo's.. you can claim all the compatibility you want: Still requires someone (either paid, or community) to manually bring the apps to a platform already lost focus, already being forgotten, already losing dev's to the "new" OS.

And, so long as that "new" OS runs on your older devices, (which so far looks like it may well be the case), that means there is absolutely no problem. WRT the packaging argument specifically.. in my experience, packaging is not the expensive part of software development. Repackaging existing software is not rocket science.

Originally Posted by fatalsaint

I personally Love my N900 and Maemo 5 suits me fine, Once MeeGo is available in a Dev version (with UX) I will likely use that.. I certainly have hopes that Stskeeps and Qgil with the community can bring forth M6-HE and "user" ready MeeGo editions as well. But the lack of official support for the future, so quickly after a device is release, by Nokia is quite upsetting.

Again, I have to ask: why do you *want* official support?

Regardless of my questions and comments above, you make some interesting points.

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	w00t	2010-06-11 , 16:48
	Posts: 1,055 \| Thanked: 4,107 times \| Joined on Oct 2009 @ Norway	#16

Originally Posted by fatalsaint

And yes, When the last official update for the N8x0 (diablo) was 2 years ago I consider the platform dead. We held on for a very long time under the "promise" of a Fremantle port, because Nokia was going to help us!, called Mer.

I won't go into this, because it's very much sidetracking away from the central issues here. It's also been discussed to death elsewhere.

Originally Posted by fatalsaint

So, while I applaud your enthusiasm woot, I get the feeling this is the first time you went through this drill.

I know my history. Also note that I'm also not saying that it isn't implausible that the N900 will be dropped onto the ground the moment the next shiny comes along (because let's face it, that's what most device geeks tend to do). What I *am* trying to say, repeatedly, is it is *too early* to be predicting death, doom and gloom *yet*.

And, with the N900's hardware, even if that *does* happen, people with skills can still hack to get the latest OS functioning on their older device, fairly trivially. As you very adeptly note with Mer, that was *not* the case in the past.

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fatalsaint	2010-06-11 , 16:50
Posts: 3,428 \| Thanked: 2,856 times \| Joined on Jul 2008	#17

Originally Posted by w00t

Again, I have to ask: why do you *want* official support?

Regardless of my questions and comments above, you make some interesting points.

All your previous points still feel like someone who has the New Maemo Experience and hope for the future

. I addressed that in my followup post to you already.. this will be the third time for some, second for me, that we have already gone through this.

To answer this question specifically: End-users. Just because I know that MeeGo will very likely be in a condition I can use it successfully and fix most my own problems... that doesn't help the general user with their complaints and problems.

Yes, I enjoy helping people - Yes I follow the forums and I post help where I can - No, I'm not paid to do it, don't want to feel it's a job, and don't want to take up helping every user that see's "OMFG! A MeeGo Flash! .. Wait .. WHY WON'T THIS WORK!!!!!".. etc.

As I said previously, Nokia has released, twice-fold for me, the best device available to me at the time. I had an utter blast with the N810, I think I was the first to completely port KDE4 to the ARMEL platform (debian didn't have it in their repo's yet) and have it running over our Mer core that was available.

I love these devices, and what I can do with them. But that doesn't mean I agree with the hands-off approach of their parent company, or that I can argue against users that feel abandoned in these circumstances.

To an end-user.. "community" support is not the same as official support. Even if (which hasn't yet happened) the end result is the same, it's still not equivalent to them.

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	w00t	2010-06-11 , 16:52
	Posts: 1,055 \| Thanked: 4,107 times \| Joined on Oct 2009 @ Norway	#18

Originally Posted by mikec

My concern for Nokia is that the deb based Meego device sounds like step 6 of 7, it actally kills all of the hard fought compatibility that Qt brings (ignoring that whole bunch of new classes coming down the line that start with M). As a part time Dev I find the whole packaging cycle very hard work, and non value add to the already extended test and code cycles due to constant platform changes.

MeeGo Touch (and the use thereof) has been discussed on the MeeGo forums. Might be relevant to you: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=524

Simple summary: if you don't have to use it, or you want maximum portability, don't use it. I certainly won't be.

I personally still think this was not the best decision to make, but perhaps this is something they've realised by making that very recommendation.

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fatalsaint	2010-06-11 , 16:54
Posts: 3,428 \| Thanked: 2,856 times \| Joined on Jul 2008	#19

Originally Posted by w00t

I know my history. Also note that I'm also not saying that it isn't implausible that the N900 will be dropped onto the ground the moment the next shiny comes along (because let's face it, that's what most device geeks tend to do). What I *am* trying to say, repeatedly, is it is *too early* to be predicting death, doom and gloom *yet*.

Yes but when we look to the future we see the patterns of the past.

The patterns so far, three-fold, have been bleak. That puts a bleak outlook for people on the future. (Granted: The third edition is yet to be completed. So really two-fold.)

Can companies change? Yes, Can hardware change and be more universal? Sure, can the OS's become more open? Always..

Have we once been shown any of that is the case to date? No.

Do we have hope? Sure - but are we relying on that hope as we were in the past? No.

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	w00t	2010-06-11 , 16:57
	Posts: 1,055 \| Thanked: 4,107 times \| Joined on Oct 2009 @ Norway	#20

Originally Posted by fatalsaint

To answer this question specifically: End-users.

<snip>

To an end-user.. "community" support is not the same as official support. Even if (which hasn't yet happened) the end result is the same, it's still not equivalent to them.

OK, that's a useful clarification of your position, and certainly, I think that if I bought this device as an end-user, I might feel a bit burned. But I did my research, knew the platform wasn't in maturity, but also that it offered exactly what I wanted of it.

But, do you equally think that those non-technical end-users would be flashing a totally new OS without knowing what it was? Because regardless of commercial support status, you aren't going to get an OTA update from Debian to Slackware.

[then again, perhaps we should just leave this, as it's getting a bit offtopic]