What is the future for the n900 from now? meego or no updates or nothing? - Page 21 - maemo.org

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Laughing Man	2010-08-06 , 19:18
Posts: 4,556 \| Thanked: 1,624 times \| Joined on Dec 2007	#201

Originally Posted by fatalsaint

This is true, but it's also not surprising and to be expected since this moved from a techie/geek forum to a more user-based forum. Users tend to want to feel safe, secure, and know that their purchase was worth their hard-earned money. They don't usually want to work on their phone they just want to use it. Unfortunately, the impression left by all this debacle from Nokia has left them feeling they've wasted money, were duped, scammed, etc.

Yeah but the side effect of that transition is displacing the technical/geek people resulting in them either leaving the community or moving to less-noisy avenues of communication. Though Nokia was already doing a good job at eliminating that group too.

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Originally Posted by ysss

They're maemo and MeeGo...

"Meamo!" sounds like what Zorro would say to catherine zeta jones... after she slaps him for looking at her dirtily...

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	Texrat	2010-08-06 , 19:18
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In summary: Nokia is pissing off the passionate people. The sort that Apple (in all their Bizarro World glory) pleases.

Old lesson still to be learned here. Very fine line between love and hate.

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tbutler@mac.com	2010-08-06 , 19:19
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It's a long story but basically:

Nokia will not officially support MeeGo on n900.
Community is doing port and some Nokia employees are lending a hand too.
Drivers for n900 are still closed but community are writing open source versions (e.g. battery management)
MeeGo for n900 is till very immature. The next release is due in October and will have a gui (maybe very basic version but feature complete?)

Nokia know full well that if other venders join the MeeGo bandwagon, then their job becomes a lot more competitive on that front. Nokia became complacent, they were top dog and didn't/don't put R&D or customer upgrade paths in the places where their customers really want it. This is something that will drastically alter their hand now with MeeGo. They will have to continually be the best to keep on top, Android and Apple aside.

This, among the other reasons I've stated, is why I believe there are so many people feeling abandoned, and refer to the N900 as a dead platform. And in this, I can't disagree with them. I have my own reservations, as I expressed, about the future - even of MeeGo - because of those hardware components and the legal issues you are referring to. As long as Nokia holds the chains on those (whether they want to or not is not my point) - then when Nokia leaves the platform MeeGo will be that much more difficult, or suddenly need to be made illegal, to port any of the newer community builds or future MeeGo versions because the "blobs", as you call them, can no longer be obtained from Nokia.

...you know, I dropped by for the first time in forever after running across the link in my bookmarks, just to see what was up with a device line I used to love. And the first thing that struck me, after reading this? It's just like the 770 days, when Nokia dropped new OS support after a year and a half. Loud complaints and feelings of betrayal from many users, promise of a 'community-supported' release of the new OS, hacked to try and get around closed driver binary blobs and the like. (In the end, I stuck with the last 'official' release instead of the hacked one, at least it was more stable.) Complaints about Nokia taking things for granted, including their customers. Internet Tablet supporters defending their ability to hack/customize the device, the greater capabilities it gave tech geeks, the openness.

For me, at least, that history drives my reaction to this. I was burned by Nokia once. I gave them another chance when I found a N800 on CompUSA liquidation. And that's been it, really. I updated to OS2008, but I passed on the 810 and the 900. And over time, I stopped using my ITs; the only really first-class application I used was fbreader, and superiority as an e-reader didn't compensate for the state of the rest of the software library.

If you've been burned once, you tend to remember that. Now Nokia is apparently going through the same series of events, yet again; will the results be different this time? A lot of people were hopeful and willing to forgive Nokia for its behavior with the 770, but will they this time? How many times will users accept this kind of treatment from Nokia? How long will they be able to continue as a company, if they continue treating users this way?

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attila77	2010-08-06 , 19:31
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Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Currently the other hardware vendors are using Android (which likely comes with Google Maps). So their current problem is not a weapon that makes their platform unique, but rather they have nobody using their platform. So holding a card that makes a Nokia Meego device more unique than a X Meego device doesn't make sense when X Meego device doesn't exist. And when you have a greater competitor that's grabbing more and more manufacturers.

There is a point missed here - MeeGo coming 'no strings attached' and vendors going for whatever they feel is the bast way around going with maps is actually an advantage. Maybe Nokia/Google doesn't have decent coverage of their target area (or limits functionality in that area), maybe they have better data of their own, maybe they just want a Free and completely untainted platform. MeeGo is good in terms that it allows them to make a tailored device WITHOUT making it a take-it-or-leave-it all-in-one approach the Google bundle is.

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Laughing Man	2010-08-06 , 19:42
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I can see your point, but what would be wrong with providing Ovi Maps in vanilla Meego, and then allow the manufacturers to do whatever they want. If they don't want Ovi Maps they can rip it out, not offer one to their consumers, or offer an alternative solution. If they decide not to take it out, manufacturers get the bonus of adding "comes with GPS navigation" to their sales pitch to help them compete with Android devices.

After you have the established foot hold you can then decide no longer to give away Ovi Maps for free or something.

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Originally Posted by ysss

They're maemo and MeeGo...

"Meamo!" sounds like what Zorro would say to catherine zeta jones... after she slaps him for looking at her dirtily...

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	Stskeeps	2010-08-06 , 19:55
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Originally Posted by fatalsaint

Yes. I was really put off on Day 1 and I think the grudge has sort of distanced me more than I had originally intended.

I really did want to delve into MeeGo and really start into something big.. but when I looked at the massive difference in functionality between the intel dev platform, vs the nokia dev platform.. it really struck a nerve. I guess I just haven't moved over that hump just yet.

Random fact: there's 12 packages that don't build for ARM in MeeGo Trunk (fails to compile). We've started patching those and most are trivial build errors. So from a build perspective, we're not much different. On image building side (mic2 support) ARM is a equal member as well now.

Here's my question. It's simply bad business (IMHO) to put money into a project that you get nothing back from. Nokia is not going to be pushing MeeGo on the N900.. they are not going to be selling "more" N900's promising MeeGo on the N900.. they are not doing anything to get any new userbase to the platform. This to me, implies clearly, that they consider the N900 to be over. So why would they continue to expend resources to it?

Short story: because it gets a strong ARM offering in MeeGo which is useful for many various reasons, such as platform adaptation. Who'd want to adapt a platform where the ARM reference device works like crap?

I know that a dev platform has to work and function in order to properly develop on it, but it doesn't have to be polished or bugfixed.

Case: Why are we implementing power saving in our N900 kernel when there's no real benefit to developers in this?

Fact: Because we're making a complete hardware adaptation, not a 'developer only' one. A hardware adaptation has to be full to be stable or not be worth anything. Rest of OS, that's another thing.

This, among the other reasons I've stated, is why I believe there are so many people feeling abandoned, and refer to the N900 as a dead platform.

I don't try to convince people they're not abandoned, I've given up on that here.

Nokia leaves the platform MeeGo will be that much more difficult, or suddenly need to be made illegal, to port any of the newer community builds or future MeeGo versions because the "blobs", as you call them, can no longer be obtained from Nokia.

Agreed, this might be a problem, but let's see how we can solve this in a sane manner. To be honest, it should be entirely possible to keep this going. Even at what, 2 man hours a month to check the lights are still on and things are building and getting exported as redistributable bits at repo.meego.com.

Think we're overestimating those few blob's importance. And as I've repeatedly said, I'd like to get rid of them if I could. But as daperl once said:

Isn't the message from x86 Linux distributions clear:

You're only as good as your supported drivers, proprietary or otherwise.

So, we have them to give a proper user experience. I'm hoping to get them to a redistributable license.

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fatalsaint	2010-08-06 , 20:11
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Originally Posted by Stskeeps

Random fact: there's 12 packages that don't build for ARM in MeeGo Trunk (fails to compile). We've started patching those and most are trivial build errors. So from a build perspective, we're not much different. On image building side (mic2 support) ARM is a equal member as well now.

Ok, but building != functionality. I still cannot use Wifi easily

Short story: because it gets a strong ARM offering in MeeGo which is useful for many various reasons, such as platform adaptation. Who'd want to adapt a platform where the ARM reference device works like crap?

Case: Why are we implementing power saving in our N900 kernel when there's no real benefit to developers in this?

Fact: Because we're making a complete hardware adaptation, not a 'developer only' one. A hardware adaptation has to be full to be stable or not be worth anything. Rest of OS, that's another thing.

Ok, understandable. The point is, well, take the very original development G1 released at the Google conference or whatever it was. That phone was not a perfect phone, they only gave out a limited number (which include root out of the box) and were meant for, who? Developers!

That is how I see MeeGo for the N900. The problem? That's not real future for users.

Agreed, this might be a problem, but let's see how we can solve this in a sane manner. To be honest, it should be entirely possible to keep this going. Even at what, 2 man hours a month to check the lights are still on and things are building and getting exported as redistributable bits at repo.meego.com.

Think we're overestimating those few blob's importance. And as I've repeatedly said, I'd like to get rid of them if I could. But as daperl once said:

So, we have them to give a proper user experience. I'm hoping to get them to a redistributable license.

To the first: that talks about meego.. I don't suspect meego to disappear, I suspect nokia to disappear (at least in the reference of the N900). Thus, I think Nokia will get to the point that even 2 man hours a month to make sure the image is built for the N900 isn't worth it.

To the second: I agree with you.. but that's why I don't think it's "over" estimating their importance. Right now they are needed.. it would be great if we could get an open source (or even just openly distributable) BME/3D/whatever binary blob to ensure that no matter where Nokia goes: As long as MeeGo is running we can port the latest and greatest to the N900 (within hardware limitations).

Unfortunately, that's still a huge question mark right now.

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	Stskeeps	2010-08-06 , 20:26
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Originally Posted by fatalsaint

Ok, but building != functionality. I still cannot use Wifi easily .

Don't get me started on connman. Once the caffeine has kicked in, my plan is to debug it and exorcise the damn thing until it does our bidding. Wasted so long time on it's bugs.

That is how I see MeeGo for the N900. The problem? That's not real future for users.

For users.. well, ask Nokia. MeeGo can only give what's contributed. But what would you really want on N900?

If you're asking me (I use my N900 daily) as a user, here's what I dream of:

MeeGo on N900 with a proper hardware adaptation (this -always- comes first)

Nokia differentiation packaged on top of it, differentiation that is genuinely useful, accessible if I plug in a IMEI and accept this is not a product and can't call about it, etc. I mean. Nokia has no problem distributing Nokia binaries to Nokia devices.. this hasn't changed.

And community helping to QA these kind of mixes and maintain .ks'es built with these things.

Thus, I think Nokia will get to the point that even 2 man hours a month to make sure the image is built for the N900 isn't worth it.
<snip>
(or even just openly distributable) BME/3D/whatever binary blob to ensure that no matter where Nokia goes: As long as MeeGo is running we can port the latest and greatest to the N900 (within hardware limitations).

First part: Nokia's still answering questions on phone for OS2008 devices aren't they? I wouldn't underestimate what Nokia will still do. I mean, I'm going to be repackaging BME for N8x0 in RPM ..

To the second part, yes, I agree, that simple kind of commitment would be nice.

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fatalsaint	2010-08-06 , 20:53
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Originally Posted by Stskeeps

For users.. well, ask Nokia. MeeGo can only give what's contributed. But what would you really want on N900?

If you're asking me (I use my N900 daily) as a user, here's what I dream of:

MeeGo on N900 with a proper hardware adaptation (this -always- comes first)

Nokia differentiation packaged on top of it, differentiation that is genuinely useful, accessible if I plug in a IMEI and accept this is not a product and can't call about it, etc. I mean. Nokia has no problem distributing Nokia binaries to Nokia devices.. this hasn't changed.

Even Nokia's differentiation packages are more than I'm asking. You mention hardware adaptation, I agree that's first.. but just because it works isn't what I'm after.

What I'm hoping to see from MeeGo is an OS that not just works, but is fluid, easy to use, and feels like an end-point product on the N900. This will happen with the next devices that are released *for* MeeGo.. I would like that same level of user-friendliness in the N900 adaptation of MeeGo.

What I expect, however, is a working MeeGo that is somewhat lackluster, maybe a bit stuttery, or lacking in certain features (probably because that feature relies on multi-touch..) Even then I'd accept it.. but I don't think the general user-base would.

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fatalsaint	2010-08-06 , 20:55
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Originally Posted by Stskeeps

Don't get me started on connman. Once the caffeine has kicked in, my plan is to debug it and exorcise the damn thing until it does our bidding. Wasted so long time on it's bugs.

Side note: I don't think I'm doing anything tonight.. I'll try and find you on IRC. If there's some way I can help with this I'd gladly do it. I would really like to see internet on MeeGo.. it would actually be somewhat usable at that point ... (well, Internet + a working terminal...)