Navicore didn't either. By my count that would be every third party proprietary app chose door number 1 or eliminated the feature all together.

Could it be security related?

John Swenson, that was a thoughtful post. I like the idea of "handheld computing platform".

Ragnar- Surely that doesn't prevent them from using the same database at least? If the schema doesn't suit exactly, that seems like a simple change for Nokia to make, especially of they want to see that 3rd party app on there, while still enforcing some kind of standard.

whee, my first post actually from the n800

ideally I´d quote all the relevant thread bits these responses are to, but here goes anyway...

skype maintains its contact base on the skype server(s), enabling the user to log in from any host and have access to that full contact set -- back to the online/offline bit. this seems pretty good as a reason to maintain a private set of contacts, though there might be an argument for syncing by choice with a local database.

for the other apps it presumably ties back to the point that no contacts/pim database that I know of has evolved to dominate this part of the unix/linux world. evolution is trying I believe, but looks pretty heavy for my use -- I need a terminal based system like pine so that mail collects on my home pc and I can ssh in to read it. others will have their own specs for managing email. I dont know which contacts database Ragnar referred to, but my first guess is that it is specific to hildon/maemo/nx00. if so, this only works if I am writing something from scratch to run on the n800, not if I am porting an existing app or intending for my project to have a wider audience.

as for a consistent user experience / interface / etc. as per e.g. osx, the flip side of this is ¨lock-in¨ and probably not terribly popular with most gnu/linux coders. even now there are a lot of window managers surviving in the ecosystem, apparently catering to many different personal preferences. probably this consistency is feasible on the n800 if you limit to only the nokia repositories, but compared to the resources feeding into that the apple input probably approximates ¨ïnfinite¨.

just my $0.02

rob.

BUT-- by the same token, why can't the customers also try to change Nokia's mind?

> some Nokia execs appear reluctant to process negative feedback

Not the line of managers from my boss to the CEO, nor other managers in my team, deciding the future of maemo and the tablets. These people are quite flexible and open to improve or reinvent what is not going well or well enough. Then you might or might not like all their decisions, but the decision process overall makes sense and includes a lot of research and listening.

> There is a mounting frustration among the tablet users and occasional feelings of abandonment

Frustration goes together with expectations. Feeling of abandonment goes together with communication. I agree the levels of optimism and enthusiasm could be much better since after all the tablets are a good and interesting product, creating passion and excitement. We at Nokia need to improve our communication with this community and the management of expectations, yes. I would say this improvement already started, some fruits are visible, some others will be visible sooner and later, and still we need to improve more.

> when I see this community's priorities not matching up with the company's
You probably want to say that not all or not many of these priorities are matched. I wouldn't say the whole community is completely disatisfied either. There is progress, only two years ago almost nothing of all this existed publicly. Perhaps part of the expectations missmatch is a matter of understanding corporate software development processes and speed compared to OSS community hackers coding and releasing.

> if both "sides" have the proper information to realize that either Feature X is...
This is precisely why I'm getting so stubborn about http://maemo.org/intro/roadmap.html , linked pages and the process to update them, inside Nokia and the community.

> New and potential users will base decisions on whether or not to buy a tablets based on what they skim here
While the optimism and recommendations done in spaces like ITT might have a noticeable impact in sales, this is in general another type of argument you can drop in your dialog with Nokia. Go instead for argumentations around what makes sense and what doesn't make sense according to the Nokia products and strategy. "Syncing with Nokia phones should be a no brainer" or "the use of a system-wide database should be enforced" are good examples of winning arguments. "User X asked about YYY but since it's not in the tablet won't buy it" is not.

> Since it can do nearly anything, people want it to. That's a dilemma for Nokia,
Not really. I hope nobody thinks that Nokia chosed to create a platform based on Linux, Debian and GNOME and never thought that the open source community would pick that base and try to do lots of things with it. Nokia wants to push and ride the *top drivers* of the tablets and the software inside and wants to not be an obstacle to all the rest of possible use cases, to be developed by third parties (community, companies, whatever). Nokia leading all possible developments is senseless, or at least not according to the strategy around maemo and the tablets.

- Your expected PIM & sync functionality will be one day covered in the tablets and probably be supported by Nokia (called PIM or not, that I don't know). When? No idea, and perhaps could come not through a single release but through integrating progressively this functionality feature by feature. At the end i.e. 'support for Word documents' and 'tasks integrated with calendar' have nothing to do from a development point of view.

- "can be delivered purely by the open source community, I don't know"
Nor do I. It would be good to know what are the specific obstacles only Nokia can remove, if any.

- SIP "at some point": if it wouldn't be vacation time I bet my answer could have been more precise already yesterday. Gimme some time.

- PIM not a black/white thing: absolutely, this is why I'm asking (since February) to let behind the PIM yes-no and move forward to the specific set of features. Thanks to fpp, Milhouse and others for summarizing, we are getting into specifics. Submitting specific enhancement requests and/or creating linkable wiki pages would help, even if many of this requests have been made repeatedly in ITT talks.

- "done for cheap": there is nothing cheap in corporate software development for consumer electronics devices. The same OSS implementation requires a lot of extra expense when you want to put a Nokia supported label on it. This is why sometimes the community can move faster to get what most (power?) users would be happy with (but perhaps not the mainstream public).

> It seems to me that this opennes is part of the "problem" with the IT
JohnSwenson, you are making a very good point here. It has to do with communication and expectations. http://downloads.maemo.org , the one-click installs and the Tableteer repository are already big steps forward compared to a wiki with long pages linking to .deb packages. But this is still far away from what mainstream tablet owners would expect and/or be happy with. Only the current software offer (with all its gaps and betas) would make much happier most of the tablet users if they knew (and didn't have that pre-configured image of what a handheld should be, avoiding them to fully enjoy the freshness the tablet brings). Well, that's at least my personal opinion.

Well, this thread is being a pleasure to read and write. I will keep reading but I don't know how much I'm going to be able to write since tomorrow I start a chain of trips, guadec and holidays. I guess the basic message is clear: fight the roadmap.

> why can't the customers also try to change Nokia's mind?
They can, and they do, complaining (you would be surprised how effective is to call Nokia support and provide 'negative feedback' there) and buying or not Nokia products (what at the end counts in any commercial product). ITT is part of this picture but there is more out there. As you say the customer is always right, and s/he might not even bother about ITT's discussions.

In addition to that, let me say that the most quoted sentence I have seen since I joined this project is:

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” - Henry Ford

The man had a point. I don't know how he applied this to car mass production. I read it as "you need to understand your customer better than they understand themselves" (thanks). The whole topic is far more complex but now It's time for me to do some actual work (and make you happier).

Qgil, you're doing it again. I truly believe that you don't see those people. What I'm asking from you is the same benefit of the doubt. I *have* encountered them in various areas of Nokia, including some involved with the N800's development and launch. Within Nokia's walls I have heard so many purely unscientific, anecdotal comments about what people want or don't want for so long I could scream if I hear another! Surveys are better!

I didn't think the qualifier was necessary; I figured it was obvious I was generalizing there. I never said the whole community was dissatisfied, nor implied it, so again I see defense mounted where none is necessary . I really, REALLY wish we could avoid belaboring the obvious. There are some safe assumptions in this dialog and I have no problem with anyone making them of my points-- it's the unsafe assumptions and black-white responses I find annoying.

To the point, I agree, and insinuated as much in previous remarks. I am amazed at the tablet platform's progress. I remain a hardcore devotee. BUT: I would be remiss, personally and professionally, if I did not provide constructive feedback-- even if it's painful for *some* to hear.

Once again: fully agreed. I think as a group here we're in consensus. Provide a single channel, and let the community diffuse the info. We've done it before, we'll continue to do so. RogerS, Reggie and Thoughtfix are all awesome at that. It's covered.

Hang on Qgil. This is a major obstacle here. While what you say has objective merit, we're not living in ivory towers here. There is what we'd like to expect happen, and then there's reality. The reality is that people DO skim this forum and make snap judgments. I've seen far too many choose to avoid the tablets due to that unfortunate tendency.

Now, if you say those are unwanted prima donna customers I might be inclined to agree . The only reason I brought it up was that there is a perceived arrogance on Nokia's part toward customers. Read the posts here. Better yead, read the Nokia Way Jam feedback when you get a chance-- employees perceive it, too. Are those claiming the notion of an arrogant, disconnected Nokia are wrong? Well... that's pretty subjective. What I'd like you to do instead of dismissing what's been said along those lines is consider the ramifications if its true.

It's another perception thing. It *appears* to be a dilemma to many here, who may have a different notion of what a "top driver" is. Survey them. Best approach IMO.

Anyway, still glad to see your participation. I'm well aware what it takes.

EDIT: I agree with educating the customer. But consider this: forget the skimmers I mentioned. Your base here is very, very savvy. The heck with horses-- they're still wondering where their flying car is. The folks here are the ones who sneer at Henry Ford and teach HIM a thing or two. So we have that covered, as well.

This is such a great quote in this context. I remember how I felt when I got my 770: I really had no idea how this device could be useful except for surfing the web in bed. Plus: I had the feeling there's so much missing that I would have expected from a - well, from a PDA.

Now, looking back, I still wonder why I never wanted all the things the 770 can do before I bought it. How could I have lived without it? And now I see the IT as what it is, I don't want it to be a PDA anymore. Thank you very much.

Traitor.