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The N900 is now 15 years old! (9)
to Nokia N900 by Arno_11 - 3 hrs, 8 mins ago -
Sailfish OS for the Motorola Moto G7 Power (XT1955-5) - (ocean) (4)
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2012-08-02
, 07:54
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Posts: 1,808 |
Thanked: 4,272 times |
Joined on Feb 2011
@ Germany
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#22
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Originally Posted by K9999
Funny. I have the opposite feeling. I find the N900 and excellent piece of hardware. Maemo5 is, IMHO, not on par.
I'm not tired of Maemo, I'm tired of N900.
I just wanna see Maemo on a better device before I die.
But if you want to use the N900 fully (i.e. also as a phone), we're pretty much stuck with Maemo. My current efforts (though very slow due to lack of time) is to try to "Linuxify"[*] Maemo as much as I can, while keeping the useful bits (e.g. being able to make a call).
[*] In the good sense of the word. Like Linux about 10 years ago or so. Before it became a bad copy of Windows and MacOS.
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2012-08-02
, 09:53
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Posts: 1,100 |
Thanked: 2,797 times |
Joined on Apr 2011
@ Netherlands
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#23
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Originally Posted by reinob
Really? I would not like to swap my linux kernel with the one from 10 years ago. Much better hardware support nowadays , faster startup because of systemd in my distro and so on.
My current efforts (though very slow due to lack of time) is to try to "Linuxify"[*] Maemo as much as I can, while keeping the useful bits (e.g. being able to make a call).
[*] In the good sense of the word. Like Linux about 10 years ago or so. Before it became a bad copy of Windows and MacOS.
Or are you refrerring to Linux desktop environments? I like my shiny KDE 4 desktop environment, and don't care some parts may look somewhat like Windows. But you can pick your own most basic non Windows/Mac-like desktop environment.
Somehow people tend to think things where better in the old days, but memories are selective. The (ICT) world changes at an increasing speed, if you like it or not. It would be better if people just use the stuff of their liking and complained less about components they (think they) do not like, just because it is different then what they are used to.
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2012-08-02
, 11:31
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Posts: 1,808 |
Thanked: 4,272 times |
Joined on Feb 2011
@ Germany
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#24
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@ade,
Not the kernel. But things like upstart, hal, pulseaudio, etc.
I understand that a desktop Linux system needs to be "flexible" so as to work with various hardware components, configurations, etc. But Maemo5 only exists for a fixed piece of hardware, the N900.
So I don't see why we need abstraction layers everywhere. Plus then Nokia added lots of things that in my opinion are/were not necessary, such as ohmd and bme.
My goal is to "streamline" Maemo5 under the N900 so that things work, but without that extra overhead. Even if there's no gain in performance or memory footprint or anything, just for the cleanness of it
Not the kernel. But things like upstart, hal, pulseaudio, etc.
I understand that a desktop Linux system needs to be "flexible" so as to work with various hardware components, configurations, etc. But Maemo5 only exists for a fixed piece of hardware, the N900.
So I don't see why we need abstraction layers everywhere. Plus then Nokia added lots of things that in my opinion are/were not necessary, such as ohmd and bme.
My goal is to "streamline" Maemo5 under the N900 so that things work, but without that extra overhead. Even if there's no gain in performance or memory footprint or anything, just for the cleanness of it
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2012-08-02
, 11:53
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Posts: 1,225 |
Thanked: 1,905 times |
Joined on Feb 2011
@ Quezon City, Philippines
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#25
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Originally Posted by mrrhq
Get a cross compiler with the tuple arm-linux-, or simply build it on-device using Easy-Debian.
I followed these instructions, but I am stuck on the make process. I have checkedout, patched and ran the make nokia_rx51_config command. But when I type make I get this error:
Code:strip mkimage make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/mrrhq/src/u-boot/tools' make -C examples/standalone all /bin/bash: arm-linux-gcc: command not found dirname: missing operand Try `dirname --help' for more information. make[1]: arm-linux-gcc: Command not found make[1]: Entering directory `/home/mrrhq/src/u-boot/examples/standalone' /bin/sh: 1: arm-linux-gcc: not found dirname: missing operand Try `dirname --help' for more information. arm-linux-gcc -g -Os -fno-common -ffixed-r8 -msoft-float -D__KERNEL__ -DTEXT_BASE=0x80e80000 -I/home/mrrhq/src/u-boot/include -fno-builtin -ffreestanding -nostdinc -isystem -p ipe -DCONFIG_ARM -D__ARM__ -march=armv5 -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes \ -o hello_world.o hello_world.c -c make[1]: arm-linux-gcc: Command not found make[1]: *** [hello_world.o] Error 127 make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/mrrhq/src/u-boot/examples/standalone' make: *** [examples/standalone] Error 2
try to "Linuxify"[*] Maemo as much as I can, while keeping the useful bits (e.g. being able to make a call).
If I were you, I'd build a buildmachine VM with armhf-linux- cross-compilers on the latest GCC, be able to compile 2.6.37 from scratch, and start a rootfs from a distro with lots of compiled packages for armhf (see: Debian and Ubuntu)
The Mer 2.6.37 kernel for the N900 works well enough. GTK2 is old but still works, and you could work on fixing up Hildon for newer GTK2 versions (refer to Cordia and CSSU, I guess), and throw it up on a repo.
Telephony works via Ofono while Bluetooth and WiFi work via standard Linux stuff. Audio to the loudspeakers should work via standard ALSA.
Use the lock slide as a shortcut to turn off the screen. This may be complicated, and require some sort of DBus integration or a custom daemon. This should give you a few extra hours of battery life.
I guess further down the line, you can give yourself more freedom by building packages specifically for the N900 using some sort of buildmachine.
__________________
N9 PR 1.3 Open Mode + kernel-plus for Harmattan
@kenweknot, working on Glacier for Nemo.
N9 PR 1.3 Open Mode + kernel-plus for Harmattan
@kenweknot, working on Glacier for Nemo.
Last edited by Hurrian; 2012-08-02 at 12:06.
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2012-08-02
, 12:23
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Posts: 204 |
Thanked: 754 times |
Joined on Jan 2012
@ Finland
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#26
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Originally Posted by reinob
Could you go into details of what you have already done, and what you have planned to do, I'm also kinda interested.
My goal is to "streamline" Maemo5 under the N900 so that things work, but without that extra overhead. Even if there's no gain in performance or memory footprint or anything, just for the cleanness of it
Anyways, I was reborn as a Linux user sometime in 1998 when my last Amiga broke. Times were hard but times were good too. I too think that distributions have gone too far to please everyone, and kinda miss the days when you actually had to know what you were doing (yeah, right
) and had to do some work to get your system up and going. As a reward you got os fully customized to and by yourself and the greatest feeling you've accomplished something. Luckily this is still possible, especially with great projects like arch linux and gentoo. That said, I am KDE user myself, I dont have anything against modern, windowsy way of utilising hardware when there is horsepower to do that. I love N900 as a hardware and too think Maemo needs some serious work to catch up, and "streamlining" it and in the same time getting rid of the closed parts should be one one goal in our honoring of the both device and os it comes with.Sorry if this was too offtopic.
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2012-08-02
, 12:44
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Posts: 322 |
Thanked: 218 times |
Joined on Feb 2012
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#27
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Originally Posted by mrrhq
What exactly is your purpose and goal? To prove a point? Or to have a working device?
See tl;dr section below.
Here's the thing. Disregarding the caveats of some of the hardware, like the awkward design idea of the placement of the SIM card, held by the battery, and the fact that the SD card slot can only be accessed from removing the panel; and the fact that the Micro-USB port and kickstand magnets, and the kickstand itself, sometimes need a fix; and that the CPU has a potential to have a decreased life at 1.0Ghz; and the fact that the battery can only last up to 5 hours this way (with an ondemand governor), it all sucks. But you know what? It can run GNU/Linux.
You see, the only reason I bought my N900 was for the software capabilities. And now that it's 2012 and Android bloatware is taking over people's minds like iOS. You admit it, too.
If I could, I would buy something like the Galaxy Note II, but only if it could run GNU/Linux or other free software on it on the ARM CPU architecture, and the newer Tegra chips. The fact that the portable devices have a highly controlled market that is separate from people's rights to freedom of choice and software freedom is completely wrong, and it must be corrected. Anyway,
I was looking for the near perfect device with near perfect functionality, but because of the deficits, I am not seeing it in this device. I can only create a new one in my mind.
Well, enough about that. I'm going to discuss my real problems with Maemo 5. My phone feels incredibly unstable with this software after playing around with it. I have no idea if I have been accidentally installing software from extras-devel. Even though I have set the pin-priority, it seems like I have been using extras-devel packages, more so. The testing CSSU may also be causing problems. I think, since I use this phone for many reasons, I am sticking with the stable CSSU...
And my other problem with Maemo 5 is that is still is not 100% free and open source, Libre software. I would expect after 4 years of the N900's release that the Maemo community would be happily hacking away at this device, making a fully functional, alternative OS, and that at least some people outside of Nokia, would know the ends and outs of it. But instead I find a community that now feels abandonment for it, or hasn't worked hard enough towards it, and I can only fear for that.
So after trying to remove proprietary software from Maemo, it seems to be more unstable. It crashes and turns off after a couple hours, my Mobile signal now has to be activated every time I boot it up, charging problems happen, there's really annoying temporary freezes and slowdowns, that I never get with Android, and many other minor irks, like not figuring out to remap the volume buttons in portrait mode... Some of these might just be third-party software problems, but it's annoying, and I can't figure it out.
I really hate how Maemo has a lack of flexability. It can easily be broken, and you have many notices that say "WARNIGN THIS SIHT CAN BREAK YOU DEVICE FOOL!!" blah, blah, blah. I never see this warning/disclamer sh*t on the OpenMoko Wiki. Come on, guys.
Another example is if you change one config file, the whole thing "breaks", and you can't boot up anymore. Hello? This is why GRUB Rescue and Busybox was invented. Why doesn't the N900 use that during the boot process? What can't the N900 use a proper init process so I can see what's going on? And it's annoying to have to keep backing up with backupmenu because it takes a long time.
Maybe I'm complaining too much, but the amount of problems has started to pile up, and the low battery life really stresses me out every day that I go out with my N900. And I feel that if I just replace the battery again, it might just last 5 hours again. I don't carry a spare battery because I don't drive or anything, I bike and take the transit, I don't have the time or privacy to take off the back cover like a fool, unless the OS freezes up, which, consequentially, happened more with Android.
When I boot kernel-power from Multiboot, it always have to boot it twice sometimes. And then I still haven't figured out how to use CPU frequency scaling without an app, and have ACPI events trigger with the screen locked.
Here's another huge, huge problem. Nokia thinks that they can F--- up the device by putting in non-standard GNU software replacements specifically designed for the N900, which breaks most compilation for real GNU/Linux software, forcing people to use a SDK and be compatible with the proprietary software in order to be able to compile "Apps", basically. Why can't I just have a real GNU/Linux environment with Xorg/Wayland and the Enlightenment GUI, or something, with a free software "app dock" thing, which already has preconfigured button and font sizes, and stuff. And have it properly work with GNU/Linux software, like Plasma Active. Why do we need an SDK like Android has?
All of the caveats are hopefully what the OpenMoko device is good at, but I don't own one yet, and it still has shittier hardware than the N900. Life really sucks when you know too much, and you know that certain things do not exist that you really want.
tl;dr section:
Okay, so I want to replace Maemo 5. I barely use it for phone calls, but it would be nice. (And, gee... wouldn't it be nice if most companies also stopped using the traditional telephone, SMS, and snail-mail in favor of VoIP services, IM, IRC and E-Mail? Whatever.)
I want to know if these operating systems are completely usable, and have the phone, SMS, FM Radio, IR transmitter, HW keyboard, etc... all working.
- Mer/Nemo
- Plasma Active
- SHR
- MeeGo
- Debian for ARM+Ofono+firmware
- Something else?
I'm really interested in using Mer/Nemo and SHR, since they seem to be up to date and rely mostly on free software.
P.S: I have also installed NITDroid on another partition already. And I am not worried if the above OSes need to use proprietary firmware to enable most of the functionality on the N900, I am willing to deal with that.
Well, I think that according to the links below, Debian team hasn't had much progress on getting Debian to work fully on the N900 (yes, I already know about Easy Debian Chroot, but I'm talking about booting into native Debian.)
http://wiki.debian.org/Mobile
http://wiki.debian.org/pkg-n900
Any suggestions for a new OS?
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2012-08-02
, 13:09
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Posts: 1,873 |
Thanked: 4,529 times |
Joined on Mar 2010
@ North Potomac MD
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#28
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Just like I can purchase a windows pc and easily replace/dualboot/coexist with say, ubuntu, I would love to see the day you can do the same with your favorite linux flavor on a slider of any make.
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2012-08-04
, 22:11
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Posts: 198 |
Thanked: 76 times |
Joined on Mar 2010
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#29
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Originally Posted by mrrhq
Code:... /bin/bash: arm-linux-gcc: command not found ... /bin/sh: 1: arm-linux-gcc: not found ... make[1]: arm-linux-gcc: Command not found ...
the messages are pretty clear. what exactly don't you understand?
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Maybe I can partition the SD card, and then put /usr and /home, or anything else that can be loaded in to RAM, on the eMMC, and partition the SD card for swap, etc, root, var and temp. This is why I would like to use another OS besides Maemo, because Maemo can't easily be this flexable.
Unfortunately, I think all of these OSes have problems with voice. Even though they can make the calls, there's no voice output on the recieving end, which sucks. But hey, maybe someone, even myself, can write the firmware needed to fix that problem.