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szopin	2015-06-02 , 20:25
Posts: 2,076 \| Thanked: 3,268 times \| Joined on Feb 2011	#21

Originally Posted by endsormeans

I don't believe for 1 second that our posts would EVER be covertly moderated for our own well being how did when the fact remains and in conclusion I reiterate that thank you and good night

The internet's changing, imagine someone using today's meme: why would anyone go on the internet and lie? posted in 1997 (before google) on usenet, when internet was 20-50k of actual geeks who thought this is for sharing real ideas? They would answer him without even seeing how this is a joke. Everybody knows about russian troll farms (bit less but still expect majority to have also read about US troll farms, not on fox or ABC news), times are changing. Open modlogs would be absurd in the infancy of the internet, now it's PR/propaganda machine, nothing wrong/bad comes out of it, so why not? Would kill those juicy/corny mod drama threads for sure, if anyone could point to the log saying this is bullsh*t accusation (that's why I'm against, still no idea what to do with the popcorn), why not? (some thought is needed so we don't become linkfarm as the world cup streaming live 20xx spam as we used to get, not recently though). This has nothing with our current discussion (or the participants), but is transparency good or bad?

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	endsormeans	2015-06-02 , 20:25
	Posts: 3,141 \| Thanked: 8,161 times \| Joined on Feb 2013 @ From my Gabriola Island hermitage, near the Edge of the World	#22

Dave..Didn't notice how choppy my sentences were there ..eh?

Of course!
Mods need love too.
That's like sayin' pimps don't cry...
Nooo-oo-oo they never shed a tear...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tK0dV_jZMEc

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Meateo balloons now available @ Dave999's Meateo Emporium

Last edited by endsormeans; 2015-06-02 at 20:31.

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	endsormeans	2015-06-02 , 20:27
	Posts: 3,141 \| Thanked: 8,161 times \| Joined on Feb 2013 @ From my Gabriola Island hermitage, near the Edge of the World	#23

Everyone knows the real purpose of the internet...
Brazilian fart porn..

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	pichlo	2015-06-02 , 20:34
	Posts: 6,447 \| Thanked: 20,981 times \| Joined on Sep 2012 @ UK	#24

Originally Posted by chemist

That is what in general is happening, you report with a reason, if the mod does not see reason it is dropped, if he sees reason he acts,

And therein lies the problem. Person A posts something that Person B does not like. A decent Person B would suck it, or in the worst case posted a reply. But our Person B decides to run to mamma and reports Person A. Moderator C, who happens to share the same opinion as Person B, as we see often in the Jolla subforum, takes Person B's side and acts. Person A never gets a chance.

The situation gets even worse when Moderator C is Person B, which is what this thread is all about. You are happy to dish difraction points to someone reported once by a disgrunted member who is too immature and cowardly to act on his own, yet all you do about a moderator who on his own accord and without an explanation moved, deleted or edited posts, causing at least three complaints in the last two weeks, is "talk to him".

If anything, I believe that moderators should be bound by the rules more than anyone else, not less. After all, they are supposed to be our role models.

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	endsormeans	2015-06-02 , 20:41
	Posts: 3,141 \| Thanked: 8,161 times \| Joined on Feb 2013 @ From my Gabriola Island hermitage, near the Edge of the World	#25

role models? bwaahahaa...
yes indeed
my fragile child-like mind needs that.

We need more alphabetical people here...
The situation is dimensionally too ABC for me...
not to mention It isn't confusing enough yet for me not to be able to follow...hehehehahhaahahaa

sorry...I need a time out for a sec.
it's too hard to type...
I need my hands right now to hold my sides...
gawd you guys are great.

ah..welllewellwellwell...
hmm...I think everyone should just chillax ...
It's obvious that people should behave and police themselves...
and when passions get so heated that is impossible...the mods are there so one or a few person's upset doesn't spread and become a firestorm contagion of upset...with words upsetting many more.
Alot of people here are bandying about words ...too much power...abuse of power...I think people better calm down on that front...it isn't a position of power nor an abuse of it...mods are not omnipotent entities..the supermods are there to moderate the mods..the fail-safes are there....the mods are other members just like you and me who are volunteering their own free time to try to keep the bloody peace whilst their fellow members make more work for them..work I might add they are not getting paid for...and then...on top of their selfless work moderating people who themselves should know better...they are trying to be kind and polite and not disturb even the offender ..(whether or not the offender deliberately offends..) ...nor penalize them...
Then the moderator gets tarred, feathered and beaten by his fellow members for doing just that?
I think enough of being kind...
the community are not children needing that kind of moderation nor the ensuing tantrums.

the 3 american principals are Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

I don't buy it ...
I'm Canadian and I believe in our 3..
Peace, Order, and Good Governance.

Stop being "kind" ...
Follow the letter of the law...
if there is a legitimate grievance ...the "only" entitlement anyone is due ...is the right of "due process"....to be heard out by another higher impartial [judge / supermod]
Otherwise it's time to pull out the big stick and start dolling out infraction-ary spanks.

Last edited by endsormeans; 2015-06-02 at 22:10.

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	wicket	2015-06-02 , 20:55
	Posts: 634 \| Thanked: 3,266 times \| Joined on May 2010 @ Colombia	#26

I find it quite disconcerting that a moderator may edit any post at will. On top of that, they can do it without notifying the original poster and without even leaving a trace. I don't think I've ever been affected by this, but then how would I even know? I don't go back and reread every post that I have ever typed.

I was once indirectly affected by moderation where I cross-linked to a post in another thread. As I mentioned in my subsequent edit of that post, the intervention by a moderator affected the sentiment of my own post.

Originally Posted by chemist

Correcting spelling mistakes ok, I can even live with replacing google with android, but rephrasing whole sentences is not part of your job description - that was off limits. Especially when you just correct spelling, that is oddly strange to people not having an edit note, keep it short though [spelling,language,missing link] like notes.
So please limit your edits to stuff like that, don't rephrase whole sentences for people (ignore that for obviously foreign speakers where you get the context but the phrases are just wrong - still note "rephrased" please). Less is sometimes more.

Seriously? Correcting spelling mistakes or correcting the English of foreign speaker is part of the job description? Wow! I'm all for good English, etc. but that just seems bizarre to me. If a moderator is able to interpret poor English, I'm sure others can too, without moderation.

I appreciate that the moderators mean no harm and I'm sure they have the best of intentions, but my personal opinion is that editing of other peoples posts is going too far.

Originally Posted by pichlo

Here is what I would do if I were a moderator.

First of all, no silent edits/deletes/moves. My personal affiliations go out of the window. With a moderator's hat on, I do not have any personal opinion. If someone gets reported, I ask the reporter and the reportee to explain themselves. Moving/editing/deleting posts is the very last resort and when it comes to that, I would add a comment explaining the reason.

That is what I would do. YMMV.

Hear, hear!

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	ZogG	2015-06-02 , 20:57
	Posts: 1,389 \| Thanked: 1,857 times \| Joined on Feb 2010 @ Israel	#27

Originally Posted by chemist

ZogG, after the first argument between you and jalyst I have spoken to him, so in the future he should add editorial notes if he does edit posts - if on the other hand a post is rude or reported, you better do not start a fight about a silent edit, rules actually have infraction points for you so if a moderator removes "bad" stuff without further notice and you did not get any points either, why bother? We are or at least should be grown up enough to admit to our own mistakes. If you supply links to the current situation I will have a look though.

Pichlo, iirc you have been complaining about such unnotified edit and while I understand that you want an explanation, the same rules apply to you, having a dirty mouth and getting edited because you get reported and do not get any infraction points for it should teach you a lesson. Bluntly my reply to your inquiry can be read as "shut up", yes, if you want to. I wasn't council and I find it offensive to go up the food chain without talking to me first. I took it first of all as a personal insult. I do not have hard feelings though. Never the less you are here again bloating about it. I have explained every detail there is, if you are still unhappy, so be it, that is what moderation looks like, you make a mistake, you get moderated - I will personally take care that the next time you get your explanation and your infraction points and no more silent edits - if you don't want special treatment that way let me know and we call this the year of moderation and I will take care that any moderation has its points applied to the users - just kidding, hope you get it now.

For both of you, if jalyst plays up, let me know!

Jalyst while you are here, you may explain yourself...

With all this long post you just justified any action moderate can do (let's say in passive aggressive way), but not trying to understand that anyone from both side can make mistakes.
After that you somehow assume there is ranking and that we are bottom of some food chain you invented (i do understand the logic, but as if someone is set to some post with responsibility doesn't make person in upper ranks and there are hundreds of users here who never were in any related position but contributed to community more than others). I don't think your polite "shut up" is better than any insult that moderator should change. I don't see why I as member can talk to anyone from council, especially as it's it's responsibility to try help solve problems users have, even meetings are public, but still you invent some chain and rank us

I don't think spelling or other things should be changed and only real spam, insult and such (e.g. my post that was deleted for word "fanboy" is not more insulting than calling someone bottom of food chain and tell them to shut up). English is not my native and i might make mistakes, and if you want to help me, you can PM me and i'll fix it, but do not kindergarten me, it doesn't feel the best way. Changing quote in post is even most ridiculous, as it can change the whole meaning of answer and as we know same words told other way can change the meaning.

Originally Posted by jalyst

I'm really disappointed at the attempts to character assassinate here, I'm genuinely trying to do my job, nothing more & nothing less. I can't constantly waste huge amts of time on this sort of thing, this is the explanation I gave ZoGg, outraged again at TMO's bias against him (yes he's said that sort of thing quite a few times -not my words):

At no time have I been biased, I have only ever tried to ensure that the rules aren't being bent -too much. My conscience is clear, I know I did the right thing, like anyone though I'll sometimes make mistakes. As you've seen in our convo above, I'll try not to forget adding a clear explanation for every single post edit, if/when they're done.

The suggestion by some here (well, one really) that I'm behind every single poor mod decision (IYO) that's occurred, is just downright wrong, misleading, & extremely offensive. Please by all means some of you suggest a motion to have me expelled, if you think that's the fair & reasonable thing to do, it'll certainly give me quite a bit more free time.

Maybe one of you feel you can do a vastly better job*, based on your idealisation on how moderation should be done, & perhaps you really can. I very much doubt that though, as I take the responsibility very seriously (as one should), & usually ponder every single decision once & then several times. Amongst that I'll occasionally "err", I'm human. This is all I'm going to say, not subscribing to this thread, I honestly can't afford to waste one more minute on this, I'm sorry.

Have a good day.
*assuming you realize all the extra running around it can often entail

I just want to remind that you deleted my post just because there was "fanboy" in there which is slang word for some fans of product that try to justify anything, even "bad things" about product. It's like call person stubborn, but on other hand you use "ZoGg, outraged again at TMO's bias against him" where you even spell my nick wrong and it's okay, right? And then you assume that you can be better moderator than us, because in your opinion you are more responsible than us? Nice way, interesting how would you edit my post if i write than kind of things about any of moderator

And it's really not cool to post private conversation, especially only part of it and when in prev convo you explicitly asked me not to post publicly it. It's called hypocrisy when you do not like something and you even make actions against it and on other hand you do it yourself without blinking the eye.

I'm not trying to overthrow someone here or exile, i just see wrong actions in community i care about and feel part of it for past 5 years from maemo 5 era. And i do believe that if you do things you should do it right, doesn't matter if you a volunteer or not. As i understand it, i never asked to be moderator or council member(though i was offered by one respectable here council chairman(he was that time)) but reason i did not do it was simply as I know you need to do it proper, it's mostly not power but responsibility and time. I appreciate the work of moderators, the free time they spend here and all the mess they need do deal with, but on other hand it doesn't justify their wrong actions. Pretty fair and simple, it's not black and white.

I can be pretty annoying and talk on less interesting matters, but those matters we need to talk about and resolve them and i'm not afraid to raise my voice, I'm trying to be straight and tell what i think. When i had time i participated in meetings and tried to help folks in a ways i can. I never insulted anyone as far as i recall on this forum and i want to feel here as at home and it's not enough of fragmentation on the forums with some "elite" groups, but moderators and admins now feel free to change post coz of spelling, delete posts on matter of own view and they angry at you for pointing this out? I think slowly the line we passed is getting more and more far behind us! Just trying to think of it objectively, mostly this is the best quality you can find in moderator...

I had more to say, but most things ran out as i was not in reach of computer and it's not the text i feel comfortable to write on phone. I hope you get my point.

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szopin	2015-06-02 , 21:05
Posts: 2,076 \| Thanked: 3,268 times \| Joined on Feb 2011	#28

e.g. my post that was deleted for word "fanboy" is not more insulting than calling someone bottom of food chain and tell them to shut up). English is not my native and i might make mistakes, and if you want to help me, you can PM me and i'll fix it, but do not kindergarten me

holy wow, pls next time just fix it to fanboi, why the deletes (and if it was aimed at me, leave it!!! I am proud to be a fanboi, latest slashdot's comments probably now brought up to light there aren't that many of us left (and latest slashdot 'modding out' comments/news critical to throwing out gimp guy to dish out malware installer (slashdot owner owns sourceforge too): are probably even better example)

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	ZogG	2015-06-02 , 21:12
	Posts: 1,389 \| Thanked: 1,857 times \| Joined on Feb 2010 @ Israel	#29

Originally Posted by chemist

... We are or at least should be grown up enough to admit to our own mistakes. If you supply links to the current situation I will have a look though....

Meh, i mentioned in the first post, that even if i don't agree with him, i can understand where it came from. But changing quotes? it's just proves the point "it starts here, where it ends" as i understand from thread that even spelling changed sometimes. I understand that this comes mostly from "it doesn't really matter" and even if it's true, it should not be a reason. Today this doesn't matter, tomorrow more serious things, as who to judge what does matter? Once the line is crossed it never ends.
I can understand if there is spam or real insult or calling names and it can be deleted till resolved, but some things shouldn't be done silently like it's nothing to change someone's post. if it doesn't that matter — you can inform the user and wait him to fix it. The minimum is that he would be aware that in some thread, he may never visit again, someone decided to edit his post and he do not really agree with that (which is fair enough and i think is his right), though i doubt he will get notification on phone about that.

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