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2010-01-22
, 19:20
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Posts: 2,173 |
Thanked: 2,678 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ Cornwall, UK
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#32
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Originally Posted by fatalsaint
I'm going to dispute your disclaimer to having any people skills. You're a human being yourself - at least I assume you are. And you're an intimate of that group which I perceive to be getting 'tetchy' over the way things are here - and apparently dealing with it by arguing amongst themselves. So you have a lot to contribute to the solutions, or part-solutions to the problems. At the very least, you are helping to diagnose it..
Honestly I'm useless in this field. People don't come with an IP address so I'm pretty useless when dealing with them.
I'm a geek... I'm a tech.. that's what I do. Making things user-friendly is not my specialty. I leave that to you.
However, I think you're right - we are one of (if not the) best support sites for the N770/800/810 and 900. Which just points to the fact we've sort of driven ourselves here.
I personally am not too sure there is a way out ... we would need more people that actually care to participate daily in here, not just when things are broken. The target audience has changed, and reading Texrat's community outreach program confirms it even further: Nokia isn't as much interested in us.. they are more interested in attracting the people that I talk about in my post. Because they are the majority.. they are where the money is.
We tend to make the device do what we want it to .... not really *needing* nokia .... and thus - we've become the unimportant group. With the N8x0/770 it was more specifically to a tinkering group.. and a tightnit tinkering group tends to be much more helpful - IMHO. But far less profitable in a business' eyes, I think.
This has always been a contributor forum. And the feeling now is that people come for support, get what they came for, and leave.
A couple questions:
Do those people even know that you'd like them to contribute back? Do they feel there is something they can put in if they're not geeks/devs/techs? When I arrived, I mooched around for a while (it may have looked like I jumped with both feet but I read pretty thoroughly) and I was baffled for what use you might have for a bear of very little brain. How do we tell people that we want them to contribute and what they can do?
Secondly, is it easy for newcomers to contribute? Honestly? Bugzilla is a admitted monster, Brainstorm is in such confusion that people who think they're making helpful suggestions get snapped at that they've done it wrong. Community suggestions are regularly knocked back with "We discussed that ages ago and decided this way was right - end of discussion".
There will always be people who come here for support, get help and go. But if we want a proportion of them to stay and contribute, maybe we need to make it easier for them to do so.
__________________
Hi! I'm Kathy and I'm a Maemo Greeter! Welcome.
Useful links for newcomers: New members say hello , New users start here, Community subforum, Beginners' wiki page, Maemo5 101, Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
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Hi! I'm Kathy and I'm a Maemo Greeter! Welcome.
Useful links for newcomers: New members say hello , New users start here, Community subforum, Beginners' wiki page, Maemo5 101, Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Did you know Meego.com has forums too?
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2010-01-22
, 19:22
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Posts: 1,885 |
Thanked: 2,008 times |
Joined on Aug 2009
@ OVI MAPS
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#33
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texrat i have beated around the bush a bit and read between the lines when all I wanted to say was we must try other things before taking the drastic action of splitting the community in to two.
maemo.org is fragmented already and in danger of becoming too big too quickly.
improving current structure of the site must be the priority when that's done it may solve the current identity problem too.
maemo.org is fragmented already and in danger of becoming too big too quickly.
improving current structure of the site must be the priority when that's done it may solve the current identity problem too.
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2010-01-22
, 19:28
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Posts: 155 |
Thanked: 118 times |
Joined on Jan 2008
@ Ontario, Canada
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#34
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I don't know. I've been hanging out here on and off for some time (when off it was because I had work pressures, when on because they abated somewhat - which is to say my participation has been nothing to do with what the forum was like at the time)
I haven't always been as contributory as I'd like. Frankly there are better people than me at coding, and better people than me at writing, and people with much more time than me in other areas. Mostly I've tried to participate is a positive fashion and perhaps sometimes be a small voice of reason. Whatever, it has always been fun.
That said, I mentioned before something like this might occur, at least obliquely. It's quite natural and in the nature of things. It's also in the nature of t'internet. It was bound to happen that tmo wouldbecome like the internet and less like a collegiate gathering. You now have choices...
There is nothing wrong with having high expectations. Or elitism. Heavens, I can be as elitist as the next person. And often am...
I haven't noticed a slip recently but there is less, well, tolerance, probably with goodreason, too be honest.
So, here are your choices:
1 suck it up and hope it gets better (it may well if proper behaviour is shown by those who care - and no this is not a criticism of anyone!)
2 go for elitism. ban inappropriate postings with zero tolerance, allow say 5 questions for free and no postings after that unless you get thanks or whatever. Don't allow anyone in unless recommended by those with enough karma. We can hash out the details.Anyone can see but no-one except the proven can play.
3 split (derivative of 2)
As said, elitism is just fine, and needs no justification. But if you want route 2 or 3 you have to be prepared to stand up and say that's how it is. And possibly justify to Nokia given the relationship m.o has with the corp (real or perceived and mistaken on my part as it may be)
I hope to be on the inside but I don't want to make that choice for others. I do think it's likely 2 or 3 that will enable a real forward movement in a positive way with less noise. This is your bit of the internet, you're entitled to control it.
It's difficult to write a magnum opus on an N900 so I'll stop here and wait for the backlash...
I haven't always been as contributory as I'd like. Frankly there are better people than me at coding, and better people than me at writing, and people with much more time than me in other areas. Mostly I've tried to participate is a positive fashion and perhaps sometimes be a small voice of reason. Whatever, it has always been fun.
That said, I mentioned before something like this might occur, at least obliquely. It's quite natural and in the nature of things. It's also in the nature of t'internet. It was bound to happen that tmo wouldbecome like the internet and less like a collegiate gathering. You now have choices...
There is nothing wrong with having high expectations. Or elitism. Heavens, I can be as elitist as the next person. And often am...
I haven't noticed a slip recently but there is less, well, tolerance, probably with goodreason, too be honest.
So, here are your choices:
1 suck it up and hope it gets better (it may well if proper behaviour is shown by those who care - and no this is not a criticism of anyone!)
2 go for elitism. ban inappropriate postings with zero tolerance, allow say 5 questions for free and no postings after that unless you get thanks or whatever. Don't allow anyone in unless recommended by those with enough karma. We can hash out the details.Anyone can see but no-one except the proven can play.
3 split (derivative of 2)
As said, elitism is just fine, and needs no justification. But if you want route 2 or 3 you have to be prepared to stand up and say that's how it is. And possibly justify to Nokia given the relationship m.o has with the corp (real or perceived and mistaken on my part as it may be)
I hope to be on the inside but I don't want to make that choice for others. I do think it's likely 2 or 3 that will enable a real forward movement in a positive way with less noise. This is your bit of the internet, you're entitled to control it.
It's difficult to write a magnum opus on an N900 so I'll stop here and wait for the backlash...
__________________
broken pencil
broken pencil
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2010-01-22
, 19:28
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#35
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And NvyUs, again, all I'm doing is musing out loud in the spirit of the thread.
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2010-01-22
, 19:32
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Posts: 3,428 |
Thanked: 2,856 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
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#36
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Originally Posted by RevdKathy
Well.. dispute all you like
I'm going to dispute your disclaimer to having any people skills. You're a human being yourself - at least I assume you are. And you're an intimate of that group which I perceive to be getting 'tetchy' over the way things are here - and apparently dealing with it by arguing amongst themselves. So you have a lot to contribute to the solutions, or part-solutions to the problems. At the very least, you are helping to diagnose it..
. I've never been a people person. People are strange 
. Also.. I'm thinking you might be mistaking Texrat and I... I don't see he nor I getting overly "testy" or argumentative.... I wholly suspect if Tex or I actually got mad or annoyed at something.. you'd see something quite different.
But then... this goes back to the whole "people" thing....
.A couple questions:
Do those people even know that you'd like them to contribute back? Do they feel there is something they can put in if they're not geeks/devs/techs? When I arrived, I mooched around for a while (it may have looked like I jumped with both feet but I read pretty thoroughly) and I was baffled for what use you might have for a bear of very little brain. How do we tell people that we want them to contribute and what they can do?
Secondly, is it easy for newcomers to contribute? Honestly? Bugzilla is a admitted monster, Brainstorm is in such confusion that people who think they're making helpful suggestions get snapped at that they've done it wrong. Community suggestions are regularly knocked back with "We discussed that ages ago and decided this way was right - end of discussion".
We weird tech's don't have a problem navigating such things as bugzilla. In point of fact, I get more annoyed at Brainstorm's "user-friendly"ishness than I do at bugzilla's direct-to-the-point interface. However, if we want users to contribute you're right - they need something they can contribute with. But this goes back to: If we don't know it's broken because they are too timid to interject in somewhere .. how are we supposed to fix it?
We have 1000's of registered user names.... and it takes months to get a brainstorm item to get 10 measley votes? Hell.. it's a workout just to get more than one solution over there. You can't navigate this forum, or maemo.org, without getting thrusted into brainstorm somewhere - and yet it's promptly ignored by... everybody?
*shrug*
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2010-01-22
, 19:35
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#37
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Originally Posted by RevdKathy
Kathy, it isn't so much about that. It's that, IMO, the proportion between providers and consumers is growing and not toward the better. Natural thing, yes, but still a problem for those of us on the provider side. And again: many people have zero interest in truly joining the community. We already seen that with certain sociopaths.
There will always be people who come here for support, get help and go. But if we want a proportion of them to stay and contribute, maybe we need to make it easier for them to do so.
You made the transition, quickly and seemingly easily, from rank noob to accomplished facilitator. We need to cultivate more of that... but to your question about whether people know: how did you? Did you come here to consume and accidentally fall into a groove that allowed you to grow, or were you so inclined in the first place?
I already know the answer, BTW.
Humans by nature are more consumer than creator/provider. And if the community becomes too large, it HAS to fragment somehow-- even if it's just along hierarchal lines. At some point it becomes unsustainable otherwise... just like churches spawning other churches. Natural. Necessary.
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2010-01-22
, 19:36
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Posts: 6 |
Thanked: 11 times |
Joined on Jan 2010
@ Hungary
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#38
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Hey all,
I am usually read-only(especially on forums that I just registered), at first because you can have the information u need well enough most of the time that way, secondly my English is not flawless (ever sinking tbh), but now I felt this thread is something that must be emphasized.
Although I have heard about this beauty (N900) first only two weeks ago, now I have one, and am happy to use it. I am not a geek nor a tech, just interested in IT, linux, cellulars, etc. I wont ask questions about things that are already answered thousands times, wont start threads like HELP ME PLS FAST, but I really want to be a member of this community. And I am positive! I have been using the internet for about 10-12 years now, I ran into forums (people, community!) that were great ie. forums.gentoo.org, and bad ie. a forum on the game Diablo II (oh man!). A community can make something really good and prosperous, and vica versa.
Let us imagine that Nokia wants to see if a community and a big world of open source users can make their income grow. And act like that. You get the idea.
As I mentioned I am neither a geek nor a developer, I have puny experience in programming, but I do use linux on my pc, (and on my cell now ofc ^^), so I am sure I too can help the community. Just dont know where and how to start. So please feel free to contact me, and give me some testing or I dunno what tasks. I have the time and devotion to it.
word.
Last edited by hoher11; 2010-01-22 at 19:40.
I am usually read-only(especially on forums that I just registered), at first because you can have the information u need well enough most of the time that way, secondly my English is not flawless (ever sinking tbh), but now I felt this thread is something that must be emphasized.
Although I have heard about this beauty (N900) first only two weeks ago, now I have one, and am happy to use it. I am not a geek nor a tech, just interested in IT, linux, cellulars, etc. I wont ask questions about things that are already answered thousands times, wont start threads like HELP ME PLS FAST, but I really want to be a member of this community. And I am positive! I have been using the internet for about 10-12 years now, I ran into forums (people, community!) that were great ie. forums.gentoo.org, and bad ie. a forum on the game Diablo II (oh man!). A community can make something really good and prosperous, and vica versa.
Let us imagine that Nokia wants to see if a community and a big world of open source users can make their income grow. And act like that. You get the idea.
As I mentioned I am neither a geek nor a developer, I have puny experience in programming, but I do use linux on my pc, (and on my cell now ofc ^^), so I am sure I too can help the community. Just dont know where and how to start. So please feel free to contact me, and give me some testing or I dunno what tasks. I have the time and devotion to it.
word.
Last edited by hoher11; 2010-01-22 at 19:40.
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2010-01-22
, 19:40
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#39
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Originally Posted by hoher11
Spend enough time in this subforum and you'll see allll kinds of opportunities.
As I mentioned I am neither a geek nor a developer, I have puny experience in programming, but I do use linux on my pc, (and on my cell now ofc ^^), so I am sure I too can help the community. Just dont know where and how to start. So please feel free to contact me, and give me some testing or I dunno what tasks. I have the time and devotion to it.
word.
you are already off to a good start. Welcome.
EDIT: joining Maemo Greeters (see thread in this section) is the simplest way to contribute. You don't even need to know anything; just edit your signature. See RevdKathy's example.
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Last edited by Texrat; 2010-01-22 at 19:53.
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2010-01-22
, 19:42
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Posts: 3,428 |
Thanked: 2,856 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
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#40
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Originally Posted by hoher11
If you continue to make posts like this.. and continue to navigate the forums reading peoples problems and learning answers... you are bound to even *accidentally* be helpful at some point
As I mentioned I am neither a geek nor a developer, I have puny experience in programming, but I do use linux on my pc, (and on my cell now ofc ^^), so I am sure I too can help the community. Just dont know where and how to start. So please feel free to contact me, and give me some testing or I dunno what tasks. I have the time and devotion to it.
word.
. You'll also find you'll probably have no problems with the vast majority of people that Tex calls "providers".
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Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net