Generally, I have no brand loyalty.. but I do have loyalty to the one that sells me what I want. I'm not sure that qualifies as Stallman fanaticism so much as consumers wanting transparency and trust.

I'm pretty sure you may be right, but that doesn't stop me and other customers from demanding it, promoting it and then purchasing it when it becomes available and voting with our dollars to the ones that can do it without clearly hobbling things to corral us into the closed-source trap. When a company touts openness, however, they'd better not just talk the talk unless they're ready to walk the walk, too. That was Nokia's greatest mistake: Marketing to us with openness, and then selling us on the promise of more openness and then only making open-core that depended on close-source...and then finally trapping you in a closed-source and, worse, DRM-locked architecture and doing less and less open-source.

The final F*** YOU to previous and current customers was the choice to go wholesale Windows Phone. At least they FINALLY stopped pretending to care about open-source at all and I'm validated in my choice of jumping to Android where open-sourcing is ongoing and increasing, rather than decreasing and the closed-source is NOT a dependency for a fully-working OS (rather, usually, a dependency of the hardware... which is fine).

Is SailfishOS going to make closed-source (not necessarily hardware drivers) a hard dependency the way Maemo did all the way up to Harmattan? (Because that's already a non-starter for me and many others I've talked to.)

Thanks for danramos to bupm that post up...
I had not noticed it before;

I would like you to prove that, how for example Debian is not fully open?

Sailfish won't make closed source a hard dependency. That's the impression I got. We'll have to wait and see of course.

Last time we updated everyone about this, stskeeps was still very much planning on getting a response back to us.
He apparently had already done a fair bit towards it....
I guess he's put it on the back-burner because much more has been clarified since MWC...
For the last 1-2wk I haven't been following TMO at all, that'll continue till approx. Oct & is unlikely to change before then.

Would shmerl or anyone be happy to actively manage/maintain this initiative?
It could be kept as a ongoing thing, or be something with a end-game, your call.

There was no formal response from Jolla. I'd say many questions weren't answered (probably because they can't answer them yet).

I can go over the list, but so far I'm not sure if any significant questions were clarified since the last time. I'll have limited time to do that as well, but I'll post any response from Jolla if and when they'll decide to answer.

And where do u see debian on consumer devices???

Go back and re-read your posting. Nowhere you say anything about consumer devices. You state exactly:

"Again nothing will be fully open in ANY OS. People should stop being so naive Stallman fanatics."

Just ANY OS as far as I can see...
Besides nothing wrong with a bit of RMS fanaticism, I have great respect for him.

Thanks Buddy,

Carsten's your man, I've pinged him a few times over the last few days*, but I've not had a response yet.
What HAS been cleared-up, now needs to be added to the Wiki that's referenced in the 1st post...
Then it can be removed from the Google docs, leaving only stuff that isn't yet cleared-up or addressed.

*Twitter's weird, 1 post was missing from the entire thread, hence the 1st link, 2nd link contains the remainder of the thread.
Final 1/4 of the thread relates to this TMO thread, but the entire thread's prolly still of interest to everyone.

I'm reasonably certain you didn't say anything about "consumer devices" in your statements, but if you must press the issue: pretty much anywhere it's installed on consumer devices (usually laptops, desktops and tower computers). I suspect these "devices" are, in fact, owned and used by "consumers." Perhaps you want to revise your argument some more by specifying "stock" commercially sold devices? But now you would be splitting hairs pretty thin in a desperate effort to make your point. I could point out the old Zaurus, Yopi and Trolltech Qtopia devices as a few--ironically, didn't Nokia acquire Trolltech? Tsk.

Still, I know where you're coming from and I understand what you mean--if there are truly open architectures, it's not common enough. To my point, though, we should promote it whenever we see it and whenever it's done well in an open-source way. I believe these older open devices were just out long before it became ubiquitous for people to buy perfectly capable computers to stick into their trouser pockets and carry everywhere, the way we do these days. Now, we just need an appropriately capable and open operating system.

To juiceme's credit, there's nothing wrong with RMS fanaticism when the whole point is to promote trust and transparency for the benefit of the end-user and owner. Why wouldn't you want that?

Please don't continue that discussion, it's getting WAY off-tangent, there's other "general discussion" threads.
Stick to the original charter of this thread please, which is to drill-down & focus on: Sailfish(Jolla) Ideas/Qns, Concerns/Criticisms*
Document them, get them answered/resolved, document that, wash/rinse/repeat etc...

*based on known facts, or at the very least; well-informed inferences, but even then we shouldn't go there unless there's nothing else to knock-over