Originally Posted by JulmaHerra

This is because you cannot use open sourcing to save dying platform. Open source should be there from the beginning and it needs robust community behind it, which requires some good faith instead of cynical infighting and clinging on to every single mistake/wrong/annoyance possible. Which is why I'm currently very skeptical if open sourcing would make any difference with Sailfish.

Another point of view is that open sourcing closed bits is something more than just changing labels in some papers. You need to know exactly what you are open sourcing, you need to be 100% sure there are nothing infringing other licenses and doing that research does cost time and at times money. Do it wrong and you end up in court and bankruptcy. On top of that, you need to have a way to organize everything related to that code, contributions, feedback etc etc. or whole open sourcing will result in utter failure and more "they cannot even do that right"-comments here and abroad. Still, they promised to open source many things and I do believe they will do it. Patience is a virtue.

Originally Posted by ZogG

So WebOS opensourcing did not help them? So LunaOS and LG's TVs using WebOS is fictional:
https://pivotce.com/2015/08/17/luneo...e-caffe-crema/
http://m.lg.com/uk/smarttv/webos (BTW there even tlremote client for WebOS based TV for sailfish by icoderus)

Originally Posted by JulmaHerra

As I said in my previous reply to Copernicus, open sourcing as last desperate attempt to save a dying platform almost never works. This example is how another company took the code and adapted it to completely different product than WebOS was designed in the beginning. To counter one single example of not-entirely-failed open sourcing there are numerous other attempts that failed (ie. Symbian). Without companies to back up development, communities rarely can run development very far.

If WebOS was open source from the very beginning, the situation might be much better in that regard. Which is why I do hope Jolla open sources as much as they can, though I don't believe that anything they do improves relations with community anymore.

Originally Posted by JulmaHerra

Problem of Jolla is that they have to balance between ideology and reality, which is something communities don't have to take into account. Tablet is late 3rd time now and it's likely they have their hands full with that. So no resources for open sourcing, or we won't have Tablet even for Christmas. But who cares about products, we want the code!

It doesn't really matter if people are displeased for real reason or not. What matters is how it shapes the attitudes in community in general and IMO Jolla had an uphill battle on that front since from the beginning. If even good intentions are turned against them on first opportunity, I do not see how anything related to "having real reason" or "not having a real reason" makes any difference anymore. After all, humans are not that rational beings. It's like buying a car - choice is made by emotion and "rational" reasoning is invented afterwards... :P

Originally Posted by ZogG

today product is not something you buy one time and that's it. it's ecosystem (you pay for apps and you do not want to switch platforms to buy same apps again right?), it's about support, updates, communication. Even cars today get updates (Tesla and all new cars), so it's not one time thing. You do research and you do think forward(if you are not one throwing money for no reason).
And loyalty to company or support from community comes from several reasons: PR(promises and so on), communication, support and mostly important deeds.

3 Years is a long time especially in mobile business and can you tell where exactly Jolla improved (not talking about UI and SW changes) but in matter of community relations and promises and communication? Few weeks earlier we had sh#t storm about silence from Jolla regarding delay and they provided some info(later than should be done but still) and only few weks later there is again silence. Like they do not learn anything, same as people who keep believing.

Originally Posted by ZogG

So WebOS opensourcing did not help them?

Originally Posted by JulmaHerra

Still, the product is in the center of everything - no amount of pr, respect, good deeds, ecosystem or communication will help if product itself is not improving. Sailfish has been improving a lot. There are things that still need attention, but if you only concentrate on bits important to you and disregard everything else that has happened with the platform, you are not painting the whole picture - this is why I don't really recognize my own device from descriptions of some posters here. It's all negative, completely, utterly negative concentrating on everything that can be turned to negative without even a hint to anything even remotely positive. That's what makes this place quite tiresome at times and that's why I have lost most of my faith in communities.

As for comparison to cars, to be successful, the car needs to be good in what it's intended to do. If it's not, there will be no brand loyalty, no matter how much effort is put into communication. However, being a Saab owner I do recognize the pain of not being able to tinker with everything in car when manufacturer has deep sixed and it's designed in certain fashion. But ultimately, the product needs to perform, it's the baseline on top of which everything else is built.



During previous s***tstorm I asked, what is it you want them to communicate, if they have nothing concrete to announce? "There is problem with x and y, we need to fix them." Yeah right, everybody knows already that there are problems and that they need to be fixed. Ambiguous announcements don't do any good and arbitrary schedules neither as they will lead yet another disappointment when something unexpected prevents delivery on that schedule and at least part of community takes those estimates as God's promises to His people. So, it's mostly about expectations - you seem to be one of those expecting every single detail to be poured out for gossip and bemoaning. I expect delivery above everything else. So even if I'm definitely not happy with yet another delay (as I actually have a need for that Tablet), I don't want some communication just for the sake of it. I want communication only when there is something relevant to disclose. Chit chat is luxury for those who don't have anything more important to do. But that's only my take, your take is different.