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fms is offline fms
2008-03-07 , 06:14
Posts: 1,418 | Thanked: 1,541 times | Joined on Feb 2008
#41
Originally Posted by Mixu View Post
I was hoping something like this: "You should try the Maemo SDK again. They have really improved it during last months."
Well, Maemo SDK+ is actually painless to install and use: you only have to prepend all your usual build commands with "sb2". But you haven't answered any of my questions! What a pity!

* Good luck trying to sync with Exchange server
* Good luck trying to develop OpenGL applications for ITT
Not sure why I should spend my life syncing with Exchange server. OpenGL may be of some use, especially on a 800x480 screen (iPhone only has 480x320) but if you have not installed an SDK, there is no point lamenting its lack or celebrating its presence. So, back to those three questions.

I guess we both could go on but that wouldn't be very constructive, would it?
Hey, I can go on just for the fun of it.

But I think that Nokia should introduce OMAP 34x0 based ITT and not rest on laurels. They aren't the only ones producing small internet tablet(like) devices. Could someone comment on how likely Nokia will produce such a beast before autumn? ... TI starts volume production of 3430 this year.
Well, you pretty much answered your own question. If OMAP3 mass production has not started yet, it is not logical to expect Nokia release a product based on it. Notice that all current Nokia devices come out with OMAP2 right now. It usually takes 6-12 months to switch to a new platform, from the moment the chips go into mass production. You can use Nokia's OMAP1->OMAP2 switch as a reference.
Last edited by fms; 2008-03-07 at 06:20.
 
Mixu is offline Mixu
2008-03-07 , 07:09
Posts: 99 | Thanked: 49 times | Joined on Jan 2007 @ Tampere, Finland
#42
Originally Posted by fms View Post
Well, Maemo SDK+ is actually painless to install and use: you only have to prepend all your usual build commands with "sb2". But you haven't answered any of my questions! What a pity!
Well if I failed to install Maemo SDK I guess it was as useful to me as Apple SDK at that time. I think this covers all three questions.

Originally Posted by fms View Post
Not sure why I should spend my life syncing with Exchange server. OpenGL may be of some use, especially on a 800x480 screen (iPhone only has 480x320) but if you have not installed an SDK, there is no point lamenting its lack or celebrating its presence. So, back to those three questions.
And I'm not sure that I want spend my entire day with internet tablet enjoying its excellent battery life. What I have read from this forum, I'm not the only one salivating over proper sync support and better graphics hardware.

But I guess I have to give Maemo SDK a second try. If I could develop software for tablet, I might justify 420 euro price tag ( that' $650 ). Too bad they don't sell N800 any more in Finland.

Originally Posted by fms View Post
Well, you pretty much answered your own question. If OMAP3 mass production has not started yet, it is not logical to expect Nokia release a product based on it. Notice that all current Nokia devices come out with OMAP2 right now. It usually takes 6-12 months to switch to a new platform, from the moment the chips go into mass production. You can use Nokia's OMAP1->OMAP2 switch as a reference.
I'm not that familiar with hardware production and their time frames so forgive my ignorance. So this means that we can't expect more powerful tablet before next Christmas (maybe spring 2009). Too bad..
 
geneven is offline geneven
2008-03-07 , 07:14
Posts: 5,795 | Thanked: 3,151 times | Joined on Feb 2007 @ Agoura Hills Calif
#43
That unbelievably cheap data plan still assumes that you bought a very expensive voice plan on top of it, right? I consider anything over $100 a year pretty expensive, since that's about what I pay for my cell phone now.
 
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tso is offline tso
2008-03-07 , 07:22
Posts: 4,783 | Thanked: 1,253 times | Joined on Aug 2007 @ norway
#44
Originally Posted by stjuste View Post
I like my n800 but have to pay $60/month to have internet all the time -- that's on top of what I pay for my voice plan. The iphone? You can pay $60/month and get unlimited data and web plus 200 txt messages. With everything that's coming for it, if it's executed well, it will surely take over.
no pay by traffic amount option built in to your original plan?

this stuff seems to come up a lot when comparing iphone and N8x0.

its making me think that the us mobile operators are working under the assumption that only corp "road warriors" use mobile data connections for anything other then downloading ringtones and phone "wallpapers", and those can be leeched on a bit more...

as in, the iphone isnt on a level playing field as it has a special plan attached to it that gives the owner more, for less. or at least so it appears.
 
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yerga is offline yerga
2008-03-07 , 08:25
Posts: 696 | Thanked: 1,012 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ Asturies, Spain
#45
Originally Posted by stjuste View Post
If I was developing for the tablets, I'd be enticed to jump the fence to apple land because I could reach a larger user base and get paid. Some of the restrictions used by apple actually improve the end user's experience....the fact that there's quality control means that only good apps make it on the phone.
Some developers are developing for the tablets for the freedom and open source, not for money. I don't want money for my applications. I only want people uses my apps for 0$.

What if I want develop for Iphone (if I understand it well):
Computer with MAC OS X = 1000$? I really don't know the price.
SDK = free
Distribution + hosting of apps = 99$
Iphone = 500$ + dataplan?

What if I want develop for Nokia:
Computer = many people has one
GNU/Linux = free
SDK = free
Distribution + hosting of apps = free
Nokia tablet = 100$ (yes, Nokia *pays* in some way to developers)

If I do a powerful application for free when Apple or Nokia sell a similar application for 20$. Nokia will do nothing with my application, Apple will refuse my application.
I don't see a bad deal for companies, but it's not good for individual developers, and worse for free software developers.

Originally Posted by stjuste View Post
How many times have you installed an app on your tablet to have it enter an infinite reboot loop? There is something to be said about having things just work...
Never.
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fms is offline fms
2008-03-07 , 08:35
Posts: 1,418 | Thanked: 1,541 times | Joined on Feb 2008
#46
Originally Posted by Mixu View Post
Well if I failed to install Maemo SDK I guess it was as useful to me as Apple SDK at that time. I think this covers all three questions.
Not really. There is a certain important difference between "I failed" and "It is not available".

What I have read from this forum, I'm not the only one salivating over proper sync support and better graphics hardware.
Well, I am not salivating over sync support, as I do not need it. Only have to deal with Exchange at work, so I am completely happy if it stays there.

As far as graphics goes, the OMAP2 chip inside Nokia tablets does include 3D graphics hardware, so the only problem is the drivers. I am pretty sure that sooner or later this problem will be resolved.

But I guess I have to give Maemo SDK a second try. If I could develop software for tablet, I might justify 420 euro price tag ( that' $650 ). Too bad they don't sell N800 any more in Finland.
Just order one from the US

So this means that we can't expect more powerful tablet before next Christmas (maybe spring 2009). Too bad..
Who told you that you can't expect a more powerful tablet? I only told you that you can't expect an OMAP3-based tablet by that time. But there is still a lot of things you can do with OMAP2 architecture, not to mention the system software (like those 3D drivers).
 
iamthewalrus is offline iamthewalrus
2008-03-07 , 08:41
Posts: 566 | Thanked: 150 times | Joined on Dec 2007
#47
Originally Posted by awe215 View Post
The iphone requires sign up with apple and at&t for mobile internet. !
In Europe many prepaid options work, as long as you either don't mind removing the simlock and voiding the warranty, or pay more for an unlocked phone with warranty.
Last edited by iamthewalrus; 2008-03-07 at 09:54.
 
Mixu is offline Mixu
2008-03-07 , 09:30
Posts: 99 | Thanked: 49 times | Joined on Jan 2007 @ Tampere, Finland
#48
Originally Posted by fms View Post
As far as graphics goes, the OMAP2 chip inside Nokia tablets does include 3D graphics hardware, so the only problem is the drivers. I am pretty sure that sooner or later this problem will be resolved.
It's not only driver problem. See this thread: 3D acceleration for the N8x0
I quote fanous from that thread:
Originally Posted by fanoush View Post
The LCD refresh DMA (=reading 800x480x16bits 60 times per second) would eat lot of memory bus bandwidth, slowing down everything inside OMAP. As for OMAP2420 the on-chip SRAM is still too small to hold whole 800x480 so there would be same problem. There are no public docs for OMAP2 chips but the TI page
http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/wtb...emplateId=6123
says "5-Mb internal SRAM" (b stands for bits) = 640KB, good enough for 640x480x16bits VGA mode but not good enough for 800x480 (=768KB). Hopefully with new generation tablets the external controller will be gone.

Originally Posted by fms View Post
Just order one from the US
I wish it was that simple. If I buy from US, warranty isn't valid in Europe. (And I wouldn't have Finnish keyboard layout, although I probably could live with this)

Originally Posted by fms View Post
Who told you that you can't expect a more powerful tablet? I only told you that you can't expect an OMAP3-based tablet by that time. But there is still a lot of things you can do with OMAP2 architecture, not to mention the system software (like those 3D drivers).
TI only lists OMAP2430, 20 & 10 on their site and maximum frequency is said to be 450MHz. N810 is quite close to limit. Of course it's possible to add more SRAM and increate the frequency but will TI do that when the new OMAPs are just around the corner?

I haven't totally given up on NIT. I sure hope Nokia will surprise me with WiMax tablet.
 
fms is offline fms
2008-03-07 , 09:48
Posts: 1,418 | Thanked: 1,541 times | Joined on Feb 2008
#49
Originally Posted by Mixu View Post
I quote fanous from that thread: ...
Funny how you quoted the thread but missed the point: the internal OMAP2 SRAM is still available for video, even although it does not cover the whole screen. MPlayer makes use of it, if I understand things correctly. In other words, given the drivers, you should be perfectly capable of doing 3D in a 640x480 window and place other stuff (like stats or controls) at the sides. And no, you do not need 60fps for 3D: it will never render at this framerate anyway.

I wish it was that simple. If I buy from US, warranty isn't valid in Europe.
AFAIK, Nokia offers world-wide warranty on its devices. So, it should still be valid.

(And I wouldn't have Finnish keyboard layout, although I probably could live with this)
Won't be a problem with N800 you expressed a wish to buy. No keyboard -> no layout.

TI only lists OMAP2430, 20 & 10 on their site and maximum frequency is said to be 450MHz. N810 is quite close to limit. Of course it's possible to add more SRAM and increate the frequency but will TI do that when the new OMAPs are just around the corner?
Why do you need to increase CPU frequency in the first place? 400MHz is sufficient for purposes N8x0 are designed for. Hell, you can even do 3D gaming at this speed, given the drivers. Increasing CPU clock will drain the battery faster and, with SDRAM access being the main bottleneck in this kind of devices, you may not feel any significant performance increase.

Believe me, with these devices things are not as simple as just increasing the clock rates.
 
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anidel is offline anidel
2008-03-07 , 11:13
Posts: 1,743 | Thanked: 1,231 times | Joined on Jul 2006 @ Twickenham, UK
#50
I just want to run Monkey Ball on my tablet.
I don't want it to run at 800x640x16, it's enough at 640x480x16.
3D games don't need to be ran at full resolution.
 
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