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2011-06-26
, 00:25
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Posts: 1,225 |
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@ Quezon City, Philippines
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#52
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This is an ecosystem:
You see an ad on TV, there's a new {Nokia,Apple,HTC,Samsung,*} phone. Cool beans. Smooth UI, 8-core processor and 9000 TBs of DDR3-2100(LV) RAM.
You go to the $VENDOR store and buy it. Nice {Maemo,MeeGo,iOS,Android,BB+QNX,WebOS,LiMo,WP} on it. Runs smooth, as it damn well should be.
Fast forward a few days later, you're on a road trip. You use the built-in {Nokia Maps/NAVTEQ (which IIRC everyone else uses, it's all the same ****),Google Maps,Bing Maps} .
While you're at a rest stop, you get bored and fire up the {3G,4G,WiFi} to get an app. You visit {Nokia Store,WinMo Marketplace,Apple App Store,Droid Market} to download, Happy Slugs and fling slugs at cats.
You then see a pig on a burning platform and say, hey, that's cool, take a picture and share it via {iCloud,Nokia Services,Windows Live,Google Services} .
Okay, now you're traveling on the road again. There's no FM radio signal. So you get some music that you legally purchased off {iCloud,Nokia Services,Windows Live,Google Services}.
That's what an ecosystem is. If the device makers had their way, they'd lock you to one service and one service only. Imagine that described ecosystem with hardware-enforced secure content paths, mandatory cryptography, mandatory access controls, and user/system separation. This can easily be implemented in Android, iOS and non-Android Linux (via the different security frameworks) and on WP7, it's pretty strongly implemented already.
However, that's on a consumer device, which us geeks don't like. We want THE open device, one that has as many open drivers as possible, we want to literally Install Gentoo on our phones. We want to bring around the desktop experience wherever we go. Us geeks NEED to hack up consumer devices to suit our needs. That's why I bought a N900 in 2011, instead of buying much more powerful, advanced and cutting-edge Android phones. I wanted a device that gives me a desktop-level multitasking experience, compatibility with a lot of desktop apps with no matching Mobile replacement, and because using Linux is fun. There's a reason why so many people on TMO still love the N900, even if it bricks itself, has the worst possible partitioning scheme for a desktop-like system, has terrible performance mostly due to the eMMC plus a measly 256 MB RAM and a ridiculous 768 MB SWAP (!).
You see an ad on TV, there's a new {Nokia,Apple,HTC,Samsung,*} phone. Cool beans. Smooth UI, 8-core processor and 9000 TBs of DDR3-2100(LV) RAM.
You go to the $VENDOR store and buy it. Nice {Maemo,MeeGo,iOS,Android,BB+QNX,WebOS,LiMo,WP} on it. Runs smooth, as it damn well should be.
Fast forward a few days later, you're on a road trip. You use the built-in {Nokia Maps/NAVTEQ (which IIRC everyone else uses, it's all the same ****),Google Maps,Bing Maps} .
While you're at a rest stop, you get bored and fire up the {3G,4G,WiFi} to get an app. You visit {Nokia Store,WinMo Marketplace,Apple App Store,Droid Market} to download, Happy Slugs and fling slugs at cats.
You then see a pig on a burning platform and say, hey, that's cool, take a picture and share it via {iCloud,Nokia Services,Windows Live,Google Services} .
Okay, now you're traveling on the road again. There's no FM radio signal. So you get some music that you legally purchased off {iCloud,Nokia Services,Windows Live,Google Services}.
That's what an ecosystem is. If the device makers had their way, they'd lock you to one service and one service only. Imagine that described ecosystem with hardware-enforced secure content paths, mandatory cryptography, mandatory access controls, and user/system separation. This can easily be implemented in Android, iOS and non-Android Linux (via the different security frameworks) and on WP7, it's pretty strongly implemented already.
However, that's on a consumer device, which us geeks don't like. We want THE open device, one that has as many open drivers as possible, we want to literally Install Gentoo on our phones. We want to bring around the desktop experience wherever we go. Us geeks NEED to hack up consumer devices to suit our needs. That's why I bought a N900 in 2011, instead of buying much more powerful, advanced and cutting-edge Android phones. I wanted a device that gives me a desktop-level multitasking experience, compatibility with a lot of desktop apps with no matching Mobile replacement, and because using Linux is fun. There's a reason why so many people on TMO still love the N900, even if it bricks itself, has the worst possible partitioning scheme for a desktop-like system, has terrible performance mostly due to the eMMC plus a measly 256 MB RAM and a ridiculous 768 MB SWAP (!).
__________________
N9 PR 1.3 Open Mode + kernel-plus for Harmattan
@kenweknot, working on Glacier for Nemo.
N9 PR 1.3 Open Mode + kernel-plus for Harmattan
@kenweknot, working on Glacier for Nemo.
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2011-06-26
, 06:39
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Guest |
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Joined on
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#53
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Originally Posted by uppercase
Do you seriously think that you're the average consumer? Seriously?
I never used ovi or iphone or anroid or netflix and haven't bought a cd/dvd in the past two decades.
Why pay for content when so much of it is free.
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2011-06-26
, 16:14
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Posts: 4,384 |
Thanked: 5,524 times |
Joined on Jul 2007
@ ˙ǝɹǝɥʍou
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#54
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Originally Posted by uppercase
This point is not an xor against 'ecosystems'.
Well I would rather have a good phone that doesn't need all those apps or can use the so many existing applications out there.
You can have a 'good phone' with 'good core apps' and 'sane presets', and maybe even an official FOSS-compatible main repository and still offer the users access to appstore(s).
But app stores make money. They also give you something to do when you are bored. Lets see what new apps came in ! oh, a useful cooking app !
Linux media and publications spends a lot of their time to highlight worthy or lesser known projects all the time. It's a social mechanism to 'even out the chances' in a merit based society.
You can even see sourceforge's 'projects of the month' feature in their front and center page, doing this.
How many cooking apps do you have on your desktop ?
When you search for resturant on that app it uses google/yahoo local business listings which pay to be listed. Very cheap actually.
I've been a programmer, a project manager, a customer, a consumer and also a homebody (don't worry, now i've taken up hiking and scuba diving and in great physical shape).
As a 'seasoned' computer user which is comfortable with *nixes and has all kinds of scripts and 'conveniences' preinstalled and setup on my workstations, I will have no problem doing this.
Running a quick query on a search engine, I can find the recipe or whatever content I need; commercial or not; within seconds and my browser plugins will help me strip away the ads and other craps that I don't need to format the content as I wish.
But I'm not always in that 'mode' of living. When I step away from the computer, I can also appreciate the 'bonuses' that you get from conventional living; that 'digital life' has not been able to replicate yet.
__________________
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Class .. : Power User
Humor .. : [#####-----] | Alignment: Pragmatist
Patience : [###-------] | Weapon(s): Galaxy Note + BB Bold Touch 9900
Agro ... : [###-------] | Relic(s) : iPhone 4S, Atrix, Milestone, N900, N800, N95, HTC G1, Treos, Zauri, BB 9000, BB 9700, etc
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2011-06-26
, 16:26
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Posts: 4,384 |
Thanked: 5,524 times |
Joined on Jul 2007
@ ˙ǝɹǝɥʍou
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#55
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Can I just say that the power and convenience of 'ecosystems' can also be used/subverted for the cause of FOSS.
Imagine if one of the (free, opensource) repository preinstalled on said ideal device is one from the community.
We can send positive messages instead of ads, and inform the users out there of the importance of maintaining foss-friendly business models. Of the importance of holding on and having control of your own data and other personal attributes.
And there are so many other FOSSy messages that we need to be broadcasting to the masses out there.
You know... to educate them.
Think of the possibilities.
Imagine if one of the (free, opensource) repository preinstalled on said ideal device is one from the community.
We can send positive messages instead of ads, and inform the users out there of the importance of maintaining foss-friendly business models. Of the importance of holding on and having control of your own data and other personal attributes.
And there are so many other FOSSy messages that we need to be broadcasting to the masses out there.
You know... to educate them.
Think of the possibilities.
__________________
Class .. : Power User
Humor .. : [#####-----] | Alignment: Pragmatist
Patience : [###-------] | Weapon(s): Galaxy Note + BB Bold Touch 9900
Agro ... : [###-------] | Relic(s) : iPhone 4S, Atrix, Milestone, N900, N800, N95, HTC G1, Treos, Zauri, BB 9000, BB 9700, etc
Class .. : Power User
Humor .. : [#####-----] | Alignment: Pragmatist
Patience : [###-------] | Weapon(s): Galaxy Note + BB Bold Touch 9900
Agro ... : [###-------] | Relic(s) : iPhone 4S, Atrix, Milestone, N900, N800, N95, HTC G1, Treos, Zauri, BB 9000, BB 9700, etc
Follow the MeeGo Coding Competition!
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2011-06-26
, 17:15
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Banned |
Posts: 974 |
Thanked: 622 times |
Joined on Oct 2010
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#56
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Originally Posted by ysss
An ecosystem in phone-context means a self sustained market for commerce where all levels and all needed units exist to sustain it. That is why it is called ecosystem - a self sustained system. The goal is not the system itself, but the end user. The end user must feel that the ecosystem increases the value of the phone, and therefore he is willing to pay, and thus contributes sustaining the system and making it grow. A big mall with stores, cafees, restaurants and so on. An ecosystem needs consumers.
Can I just say that the power and convenience of 'ecosystems' can also be used/subverted for the cause of FOSS.
Imagine if one of the (free, opensource) repository preinstalled on said ideal device is one from the community.
We can send positive messages instead of ads, and inform the users out there of the importance of maintaining foss-friendly business models. Of the importance of holding on and having control of your own data and other personal attributes.
And there are so many other FOSSy messages that we need to be broadcasting to the masses out there.
You know... to educate them.
Think of the possibilities.
A FOSS ecosystem tends to become only about building the system, building the core structure in an atmosphere were most of the consumers also are the producers. It is self sustained and all, but never gets polished enough to attract paying customers. For the average user it is a half finished and empty mall where no one understands the meaning of the word service. Such a system is OK for developers, but totally uninteresting for consumers.
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2011-06-26
, 17:34
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Posts: 218 |
Thanked: 128 times |
Joined on Dec 2010
@ Abu Dhabi , UAE
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#57
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There's the idea of most people:
Quantity brings Quality.
Although it's quite meaningless at the first glance, I couldn't really deny that(nor I could agree).You can see more rich-client apps for windows because there are more than 15 milion apps available for it(According to their reports). But ... This idea looks a little, injudicious.What do you think?
Quantity brings Quality.
Although it's quite meaningless at the first glance, I couldn't really deny that(nor I could agree).You can see more rich-client apps for windows because there are more than 15 milion apps available for it(According to their reports). But ... This idea looks a little, injudicious.What do you think?
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2011-06-26
, 17:40
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Posts: 163 |
Thanked: 256 times |
Joined on May 2010
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#58
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You're deluded if you think your vision of this 'consumer' will still apply in three years.
Right now these 'consumers' want 'ecosystems', 'services' and 'apps' simply because smartphones are still novelty toys.
These 'consumers' haven't yet figured out that smartphones are fully-capable general-purpose devices that are capable of doing anything a notebook or desktop computer is capable of doing.
Once 'consumers' figure out that you can, you know, do actual useful work on their shiny smartphones, the market will change, and change drastically.
It's phenomenally stupid of Nokia to ignore future developments and chase a technological vision that's already starting to be outdated.
Right now these 'consumers' want 'ecosystems', 'services' and 'apps' simply because smartphones are still novelty toys.
These 'consumers' haven't yet figured out that smartphones are fully-capable general-purpose devices that are capable of doing anything a notebook or desktop computer is capable of doing.
Once 'consumers' figure out that you can, you know, do actual useful work on their shiny smartphones, the market will change, and change drastically.
It's phenomenally stupid of Nokia to ignore future developments and chase a technological vision that's already starting to be outdated.
Originally Posted by gerbick
Do you seriously think that you're the average consumer? Seriously?
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2011-06-26
, 18:21
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Posts: 75 |
Thanked: 112 times |
Joined on Apr 2011
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#59
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Originally Posted by ysss
You are very talented I am sure, but you can't strip the ads from google, the search result ARE the ads. Those were sold a cubicle away from me, but I think it's common knowledge by now as google addressed that a few years ago when someone claimed that they shift some results higher.
This point is not an xor against 'ecosystems'.
You can have a 'good phone' with 'good core apps' and 'sane presets', and maybe even an official FOSS-compatible main repository and still offer the users access to appstore(s).
What is wrong with highlighting projects from the repository?
Linux media and publications spends a lot of their time to highlight worthy or lesser known projects all the time. It's a social mechanism to 'even out the chances' in a merit based society.
You can even see sourceforge's 'projects of the month' feature in their front and center page, doing this.
Me? I don't need any. My lady is always in the kitchen, ready to whip me a sandwhich whenever I ask for one.
This one needs a different perspective to fully appreciate the point.
I've been a programmer, a project manager, a customer, a consumer and also a homebody (don't worry, now i've taken up hiking and scuba diving and in great physical shape).
As a 'seasoned' computer user which is comfortable with *nixes and has all kinds of scripts and 'conveniences' preinstalled and setup on my workstations, I will have no problem doing this.
Running a quick query on a search engine, I can find the recipe or whatever content I need; commercial or not; within seconds and my browser plugins will help me strip away the ads and other craps that I don't need to format the content as I wish.
But I'm not always in that 'mode' of living. When I step away from the computer, I can also appreciate the 'bonuses' that you get from conventional living; that 'digital life' has not been able to replicate yet.
This is OT, my point is that people don't put so many apps on desktops, hence, they don't need them on their phones - if said phone is as strong as the desktop.
The other point was that the ecosystem is being paid for in many ways, the phone maker doesn't need to set up anything. So if, say, Netflix want my money, they will make the app not Nokia. They will store the package, the installation faq etc. like it's being done with desktops.
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2011-06-26
, 18:48
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Posts: 75 |
Thanked: 112 times |
Joined on Apr 2011
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#60
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Originally Posted by ysss
That is noble thinking but most users do not want to be educated, the only way to make them use FOSS is to push it down their throat. Like building a Shiny one of kind phone that has it all, just works and market it like crazy.
Can I just say that the power and convenience of 'ecosystems' can also be used/subverted for the cause of FOSS.
Imagine if one of the (free, opensource) repository preinstalled on said ideal device is one from the community.
We can send positive messages instead of ads, and inform the users out there of the importance of maintaining foss-friendly business models. Of the importance of holding on and having control of your own data and other personal attributes.
And there are so many other FOSSy messages that we need to be broadcasting to the masses out there.
You know... to educate them.
Think of the possibilities.
We already missed the train with the netbooks, those could have done some serious FOSS infiltration.
The super phone that beats them all with FOSS can still be made but time is running out.
Nokia could have been the one, so sad they won't be.
But app stores make money. They also give you something to do when you are bored. Lets see what new apps came in ! oh, a useful cooking app !
How many cooking apps do you have on your desktop ?
When you search for resturant on that app it uses google/yahoo local business listings which pay to be listed. Very cheap actually.