Bugzilla is a software tool. Maemo isn't Debian. It isn't Ubuntu. It's a mobile operating system, based on Linux and other leading-edge open source frameworks, owned by Nokia.

80% or more of Fremantle will be open source, with source and bug tracking available through maemo.org. However, Nokia need to have a marketing advantage - and this means that some element of secrecy is inevitable :-(

Personally, I'd love to see Nokia use the experts in the maemo.org community more fruitfully, to design things; review specs and collaboratively develop Maemo to be the best it can be.

However, that may never happen. It's disingenous of many of those in this thread to suggest that Nokia should do things better. Things are better already. A quick look through Bugzilla at all the things we now know are going to be in fremantle or harmattan should make it clear that Nokia have already come a long way in the last year.

So, let's be positive about this: we're supposed to be an intelligent bunch - instead of saying "you've said you've fixed this in fremantle; but I haven't got fremantle - please spend time fixing and releasing diablo" (which would inevitably push fremantle's feature list down and its timescales out); let's start coming up with concrete suggestions on exactly what Nokia should do.

Some base principles:

• At this point in a release's lifecycle, Maemo Software are going to be focusing on the next release.
• With the efforts going into fremantle, backporting individual fixes isn't realistic.
• Nokia want fremantle to have a big a splash as possible.

If there's a way of meeting everyone's requirements, within these parameters, Nokia aren't going to ignore it: they're not evil, they're just a company trying to keep everyone (developers, enthusiasts, shareholders, the board) as happy as possible.

So you did not understood what I meant to do... But, well... I'm not so good at making words up (especially since english is not my mother tongue)... so it's ok not understanding me...

I know you're all working toward the good direction. I'm only asking for more in that case, and that way, I'm trying to support you.

As I said a few posts earlier, my rant is not against people at nokia using bugzilla, but about why they can't use it the real way, yet (and yes, I know why).

What you, and Jaffa just after you, say is that I should be happy with what I already got. I'm happier than one year ago, for sure. Does it mean that's enough? I don't think so.
My opinion, I share it, nevermind.

Your English is definitely better than my anything-other-than-English :-)

Me neither! We just need to find a way past the anger and vitriol and come up with a plan :-)

Yes Quim, if that really is [your|someone's] goal then it is the right one.

It's the one 770 users were expecting in 2007, and also the one N8x0 users are expecting now.

I'm fine with that, it's just that it had never been expressed in so many words since the question was asked in Berlin...

I think many of us would be very happy to have the Fremantle fixes brought to our existing devices, even if there is no fancy new UI on top. I even think we'd be happy without new functionality, if the bugs in the existing functionality were addressed. If this can be done, please try.

The thing is, most everyone knows that Nokia's Maemo (or Linux [UI+apps] for mobile devices in general) hasn't been "finished" or fully optimized quite yet, but that it's been understood to be work-in-progress and catching up with the fast maturing Linux desktop experience.

People trust that open process which brought us Debian/Ubuntu, Novell SUSE and Red Hat's Fedora. Features *will* arrive and drivers (and libraries and toolkits) *get* optimized. Each new release is an evolutionary improvement.

In Nokia's case there has been the expectation that as a much bigger entity (revenues, resource-wise) than the prominent Open Source companies put together, Nokia would commit enough resources to 1) take the mobile platform design forward, and also to 2) enable the small but growing developer and enthusiast community to maintain new software on the existing hardware.

From both the Open Source and also environmental (!) viewpoints 1-4 year old devices should certainly be capable and worthy of continued secure and even improved service.

If Nokia's objective is purely to maximize profit and minimize "obsoleted" platform support, maybe they should have picked Microsoft as their software sugardaddy or built their platform in-house along the lines of Apple/BSD. But if Nokia's objective is to help build an increasingly growing and self-sustainable open platform in which they can maintain a key role as an architect and benefactor/beneficiary, they'd need to learn when to stop hoarding the marbles or planning early obsoletion when it suits them.

Maybe the existing N7xx/N8xx generations are somewhat underpowered to deliver fancy Compiz/Clutter-style UI effects, but couldn't the basic 2D functionality (which we already have) still be taken forward and the building blocks fixed and improved? Is the perpetually improving Firefox engine (or user-friendly enhancements) tied to Nokia's Maemo 5/6 on technical grounds, or is it also just a problem with limited resources and prioritization? Doesn't the current ARM hardware have some built-in graphics acceleration features which remain unused due to closed/unported drivers?

It's not that I am a total ingrate and I do hail Nokia's contributions to the general Open Source development, esp. the work on overall improvements and fixes made to "behind-the-scenes" projects like GTK and QT. But perhaps due to corporate departmental and budgetary politics their actions are sometimes focused more towards short-term business bottom line as opposed to benefitting users and fostering community developers. It really is an eco-system where even the buyers-users and buyer-developers gyrate towards solutions that benefit them.

Maybe the hardware-centric and profit-margin oriented Nokia simply isn't the ideal "primus motor" to kickstart and popularize mobile Linux but it takes the "netbook" combination of distro community/company and a pure hardware manufacturer to build a sustainable non-closed platform? Time will tell, and people and companies sometimes learn from experience.

Here's the thing in all of this: Nokia already releases a lot of source code on their SVN server [1]. With the Fremantle SDK even more will show up. While lots of people are making demands of Nokia to support older devices it's time to start thinking about the give and take of Open Source. Open Source is not about getting a free ride, it's about having the tools to help yourself. Supposedly the Fremantle alpha SDK will be almost entirely open source. Once it's out, community members need to start looking at it and talking about how to get the parts possible to run on the N8x0 (or even 770!) running. <plug>One of those projects is Mer: https://wiki.maemo.org/Mer_Blueprint </plug>. If people just sit around and complain here, waiting for Nokia to make choices, then when they have a deadline crunch they'll look at the lack of community involvement and make decisions accordingly.

[1] https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk

-John

meh, im going into resignation mode here. ill probably use my n800until it breaks end then go look for something else.

To note, I was going through bugs marked as enhancements. I think there's a difference between "bugs as such" and then enhancement bugs. I can't tell you _how_ the enhancement will be done in Fremantle - and whatever the enhancement will be, somebody will not agree with them - but I hope that there is value in knowing that "yes, this issue and enhancement proposal is something with agree with and Nokia will deliver in some future release X", vs. "Wontfix = we don't really agree with this issue, don't expect an update to this issue from Nokia, feel free to pursue this issue yourselves".

I fail to see how the alternative would be better: I would know that we are going to do this enhancement in some release, but I would then keep this information all to myself, up to the day when Fremantle is then actually launched. How would that be better?

Yes, the process is half-way in this manner. A fully open process, I guess, would show the enhancement and allow visibility on what the future UI will be, and allow contributions towards the app, the ui and the development process. We are still a ways off from that. Someday that might happen, or then not. I'm no good at predictions like that, since those things are outside my control.

I said before, i think you should put the "Fixed in Freemantle" but also leave it open until freemantle is released, or another solution is found.