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Lumiaman
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2013-10-20
, 17:03
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Joined on
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#71
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N900 keyboard was perfect, but I have to say that from economy point of view, very few people will buy it. If I was Jolla, I wouldn't waste effort of a small company on physical keyboard. If it is popular enough, some other company may develop it. Just like you can get excellent physical keyboard for iphone from third party sellers.
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2013-10-20
, 18:02
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Posts: 30 |
Thanked: 32 times |
Joined on Jan 2012
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#72
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2013-10-20
, 18:07
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Posts: 6,447 |
Thanked: 20,981 times |
Joined on Sep 2012
@ UK
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#73
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Originally Posted by stefanmohl
+1
I was a little concerned the first time I saw [the N900 keyboard layout], but my experience is that it makes no difference at all.
So I am wondering, is there really a real reason for a larger backspace, enter, delete, shift, ctrl and so on? Or is that perhaps just a myth?
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2013-10-20
, 18:30
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Posts: 339 |
Thanked: 1,623 times |
Joined on Oct 2013
@ France
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#74
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Originally Posted by GizmoSmith
It's only fan art, but done great with attention to details !
Just saw this pic at www.jollausers.com
http://www.jollausers.com/wp-content...ge-648x375.png
Did you notice that little Jolla logo on the right side ?
Coming from here (as said in the article source) : https://twitter.com/capricotwi04/sta...27674147581952
I don't know which keyboard he took as a reference, seeing the "SMS/MMS" and "Mail" direct access buttons ?
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2013-10-20
, 18:37
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Posts: 65 |
Thanked: 56 times |
Joined on Oct 2013
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#75
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Originally Posted by stefanmohl
You stefanmohl are absolutely right about the size: the modifier and Enter keys do not need to be any larger than the letter keys, if also those keys have a spherical shape which is outbowing enough. If you look at the spherical key elements in the photo on top of the http://www.tactustechnology.com/technology.html page, you'll see that it will not become any easier to hit the correct key if you combine two adjacent key "bubbles" so that they get a cylindrical shape. The point is 'orientation': you will more or less subconsciously feel with your thumbtips where the center of each key is, prior to pressing the key.
On the N900, the enter, delete and shift keys (and all other function keys) are all the same size as the standard keys. Only space is larger; exactly two standard keys wide (and to the side).
I was a little concerned the first time I saw this, but my experience is that it makes no difference at all. Having an enter key the same size as my 'a' key works just perfectly, and just like I rarely hit the wrong key when trying to type 'a', I rarely hit the wrong key when trying to type 'enter'.
So I am wondering, is there really a real reason for a larger backspace, enter, delete, shift, ctrl and so on? Or is that perhaps just a myth? Have other N900-users experienced problems with hitting the right key when they try to hit, for example, enter? Maybe a larger number of keys (duplicted ctrl and shift) or a tighter keyboard (less reach for distant keys) is more valuable than larger keys?
So it is best to make also the Shift, Enter, Fn, Backspace, Sym keys as small as the other keys. Also spacebar could have the same size as the letter keys, but it best to make it two key widths wide, in order to make it easily identified. And please remember not to make the keys too flat!
On virtual keyboards it is OK to make keys like #123 and Shift larger than the letter keys, becauses on touch screens there is nothing which could help you to feel where the key centers are (orientation is helped mainly by your eyes only). Whether also the Enter key of a virtrual Qwerty keyboard should be a big one, depends on the purpose for which it is needed. Personally I think that the Enter key does not need to be especially la, in order to provide enough space for labels, such as OK, Send or Search, and the corresponding language-localized labels. What finally matters more is the place where you put a Send key, for example. I cannot understand the designers of some messaging applications which put a Send key close to the frequently hit Backspace key: if you accidentally hit the Send key (when trying to hit the Backspace), your unfinished message may be sent, if there is no "Are you sure..." reminder.
There are certain reasons why the modifier and Enter keys on the left and right-hand edges of full-sized Qwerty keys are made bigger than letter keys. One of them is the fact that those who have the more or less perfect "10-finger touch-typing" skill, hit those keys with their little fingers, the pointing and hitting accuracy of which is a lot worse than that of the other fingers of your hands.
Why some phone companies still try to make their Qwerty keyboards look like the appearance of full-size Qwerty keyboards? I believe that it is because of the ancient obsessions of arts designers and marketing people who don't know much about the ergonomics and other factors which affect text entry, and apparently do not want to listen to specialists. Their misconseption is that a Qwerty phone sells best if the keyboard looks like a 'real full-size keyboard'. For the same reason they are eager to make the outbowing keys lower than required by ergonomics (in order to make the phone 0.1 or 0.2 mm thinner), and to arrange the key columns tilted, more or less in the same way as on full-sized Qwerty keyboards. Actually there are no reasons to do so - it is better arrange the keys in vertical columns, like on the keyboard of http://talk.maemo.org/attachment.php...1&d=1382222624 . The result of such poor design is: most of the few hardware Qwerty keyboards on the market have a poor quality, which is one of the reasons why there are so many misconceptions of whether HW keyboards are needed or not. For these reasons it is the duty of people who know something about text entry and its ergonomics, to remind that it is not only the the "marketing specs" that matter - also certain facts of text entry should be taken into account.
Last edited by Egon; 2013-10-20 at 18:52.
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2013-10-20
, 19:13
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Posts: 339 |
Thanked: 1,623 times |
Joined on Oct 2013
@ France
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#76
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Originally Posted by Egon
The phone is 68mm large, so 70% would give 47mm out, and 20mm for support. If it is enough to hold it (I don't know... anyone can mesure this on a n900, e7 or n950 ?), then we can have 1cm tall key on 4 rows, or about 8mm tall keys on 5 rows.
No, I don't know the size of the phone and keyboard in your photo. I mean how aethetically well balanced the layout of the keyboard is, there are all the four arrow keys, enough keys for language-localizing, etc. And it fits to a small size. Naturally I'd also appreciate an extra row of keys, but it may be difficult to build a 5-row keyboard for Jolla. If the keyboard slides out 70% or more of its total height, the remaining length of the rails may not be enough to make it durable enough (if you drop the phone + OH-keyboard, for example).
For the width, the phone is 131mm. If 5mm on each side is enough for the sliding mechanisms, we have 120mm remaining.
So for a 12x4 matrix, keys would be about square of 1cm.
For 14x5 (the heavy layout I proposed), it would make them a square of about 8 mm.
I don't know what are the acceptable mini and maxi limits for key size...
Originally Posted by Egon
After thinking a bit more of these problems, I now see that for myself I don't want a keyboard to only type text. What you propose is probably the way to go to provide a keyboard to fit SMS/Mail usage, for everyone.
So, even though the French Azerty variant of the 4 x 12 HW keyboard would not be 100% perfect, it would match with the needs of most French people a lot better than the Qwerty/Qwertz variants of the same OH-keyboard.
What I want, is a developer keyboard that will allow me to do almost anything where I need to bring my laptop now (I work most of the day with embedded devices): take control of devices through SSH and use command line, and vi (so needs easy access to keys like Escape, :, |, >, <, &, ', ", `, $, ^, \, /, tab), take control though VNC of desktop application (so need to do almost any shortcut as possible... like CTRL or ALT+something) edit some code (needs symbols like [ ] ( ) { } # -> . _ " ' / \ : + - = * % | &), and finally naviguate more easily through text (so shortcuts like CTRL+Left/Right/Home to naviguate per words or to the top). Of course I also need to type text like for mails or sms, so the punctation is needed too (. , ; : ! ? ( ) " - ), some special characters (€, %, @) and numbers.
I can see now that we are not trying to solve the same problem. It may be that I am completely wrong and that this can be done with less keys using some combinations, and stay ergonomic.
If there are owners of n900 or n950 here that would share their feeling about that kind of usage, I would be really interested in their feedback !
Anyway the good point is this difference is only in the layouting (and key size obviously), but they still share everything else : the electronics, mechanical slide, backlight, ... can be the same.
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2013-10-20
, 19:59
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Posts: 65 |
Thanked: 56 times |
Joined on Oct 2013
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#77
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Originally Posted by Zeta
That "fan art" sample is just another "English only" keyboard: too few keys are available for decent language-localizing. Yes, some attention has been paid to details, but not enough to make it "international".
It's only fan art, but done great with attention to details !
Coming from here (as said in the article source) : https://twitter.com/capricotwi04/sta...27674147581952
I don't know which keyboard he took as a reference, seeing the "SMS/MMS" and "Mail" direct access buttons ?
Fortunately this keyboard is easy to improve: shrink the Shift and Enter keys to the size of other keys, and you will get two more keys, which allows it to be localized for different languages; see my other posts in this thread. The keyboard can be improved further by replacing the marginal SMS/MMS and Mail direct access buttons with ordinary keys (for SYM and hyphen - for example). The UI of smartphones is full of all kinds of shortcuts and icons to messaging application. Therefore I don't see any reasons why the limited space of keyboards should be misused for the direct access buttons to messaging.
Last edited by Egon; 2013-10-20 at 21:15.
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2013-10-20
, 20:41
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Posts: 339 |
Thanked: 1,623 times |
Joined on Oct 2013
@ France
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#78
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Originally Posted by Egon
Yes, I was simply refering to the image when saying great and with attention of details. When comparing to what I can do with gimp, this guy has made an image that look real !
That "fan art" sample is just another "English only" keyboard:
Originally Posted by Egon
Yes. My question of which keyboard he used as a reference was only to see how far in time he went to find such shortcuts. Not a single layout presented here had these, for the reason you explained.
The keyboard can be improved further by replacing the marginal SMS/MMS and Mail direct access buttons with ordinary keys (for SYM and hyphen - for example).
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2013-10-20
, 21:09
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Posts: 65 |
Thanked: 56 times |
Joined on Oct 2013
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#79
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Originally Posted by Zeta
I believe that no exact rule about the key sizes can be defined. Actually, it is not the exact size, but the shape and tactical feel (the "click" of the keys, etc) which matter most for keyboards on which you enter text with your thumbs. The dimension of each keys is rather the result of various dimensions, such as the maximum allowed distance to the most distant keys in the center of the keyboard.
The phone is 68mm large, so 70% would give 47mm out, and 20mm for support. If it is enough to hold it (I don't know... anyone can mesure this on a n900, e7 or n950 ?), then we can have 1cm tall key on 4 rows, or about 8mm tall keys on 5 rows.
For the width, the phone is 131mm. If 5mm on each side is enough for the sliding mechanisms, we have 120mm remaining.
So for a 12x4 matrix, keys would be about square of 1cm.
For 14x5 (the heavy layout I proposed), it would make them a square of about 8 mm.
I don't know what are the acceptable mini and maxi limits for key size...
I believe that more than 5 mm of free space will be needed on the edges of the keyboard. Also on top of the keyboard, where the edge of the phone is above the top edge of the visible part of the keyboard. Mock-up samples which have the final dimensions and weight will be needed for tests, because your grip on the phone + keyboard OH may be diffent from the grip you hold N900, for example - also the shape and thickness of the left and right edges affect the grip. The difference is caused by the fact that the center of gravity is quite low in the Qwerty half of N900, but in the combinations of Jolla + keyboard OH the center of gravity would be quite high in the Jolla phone.
Originally Posted by Zeta
Yes, some potential buyers of the keyboard OH apparently want a "Hacker's English-only keyboard", and some want an advanced HW keyboard on which they can write text in their own language(s), almost as easily as using a Qwerty keyboard which is localized to their own language(s). But finally the diffences of these 2 types of keyboards are quite small. Also with a 5 x 12 or 4 x 12 keyboard with 4 arrow keys you will be able to enter a wide choice of characters: the :, |, >, <, &, ', ", `, $, ^, \, /, etc characters will be found on the keys, in the same color as the Fn key. And a wider choice of less frequently needed symbols and characters could be found on a virtual keyboard array, which would open by pressing the SYM key. And the whole choice of letter variants could be entered both on a virtual keyboard and by combining the SYM key with a letter key, quite in the same way as with the AltGr key of full-sized keyboards. The use of the suggested "5 x 15 hacker's keyboard" would be quite limited, because the language-specific letters of each language simply are not entered with the combinations of letter keys and modifier keys (Fn, Sym, etc). For most European languages will be needed typically 2 ... 4 keys (of letter variants, or sticky accents) which are found on the right-hand side of the keyboard. English and perhaps Dutch are among the few exceptions in this respect.
After thinking a bit more of these problems, I now see that for myself I don't want a keyboard to only type text. What you propose is probably the way to go to provide a keyboard to fit SMS/Mail usage, for everyone.
What I want, is a developer keyboard that will allow me to do almost anything where I need to bring my laptop now (I work most of the day with embedded devices): take control of devices through SSH and use command line, and vi (so needs easy access to keys like Escape, :, |, >, <, &, ', ", `, $, ^, \, /, tab), take control though VNC of desktop application (so need to do almost any shortcut as possible... like CTRL or ALT+something) edit some code (needs symbols like [ ] ( ) { } # -> . _ " ' / \ : + - = * % | &), and finally naviguate more easily through text (so shortcuts like CTRL+Left/Right/Home to naviguate per words or to the top). Of course I also need to type text like for mails or sms, so the punctation is needed too (. , ; : ! ? ( ) " - ), some special characters (€, %, @) and numbers.
I can see now that we are not trying to solve the same problem. It may be that I am completely wrong and that this can be done with less keys using some combinations, and stay ergonomic. ...
It looks that by now practically all smartphone companies have gone wrong by designing HW and virtual keyboards first for the English language. The best way to avoid that mistake is to design the layout so that it can be localized to several languages. The best way to accomplish this is to add about 4 extra keys, and in the first prototypes not to stick too tightly to the English layout only. How to do it can be read in my other comments in this thread.
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2013-10-21
, 06:00
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Posts: 646 |
Thanked: 1,124 times |
Joined on Jul 2010
@ Espoo, Finland
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#80
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Originally Posted by Zeta
Magic of google images: save the picture, cut everything that is not the keyboard layout, pass it to GI, and the answer is: HTC S740
I don't know which keyboard he took as a reference, seeing the "SMS/MMS" and "Mail" direct access buttons ?
BTW: let's suppose that Jolla is indeed preparing a OH kbd for worldwide users. If 100 is the cost of designing & manufacturing a keyboard in only one possible layout, does anybody know what would be the cost to support many layouts ?
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