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lma is offline lma
2009-04-12 , 15:46
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#81
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
The post I was quoting was trying to describe desktop compatibility (specifically the ability to use straight desktop ports) as one of the core strengths of the platform, which it is not.
Actually, the post said "without a lot of change", not straight ports. Ie, this is more about ports like claws, gpodder or xournal rather than running an arm-compiled openoffice on the tablet (although as we know that is also possible). And indeed that is one of the core strengths of the platform IMHO, and at least part of the reason Nokia is pushing home-grown projects upstream, tracks other upstream projects more closely and so on.

This goes much deeper than GUI apps btw. Systems today are so complex that the "standing on the shoulders of giants" approach is really the only sensible way to build them if you want to get anywhere before you're obsolete, and why proprietary alternatives will ultimately fail. Just a trivial example: how many mainstream non-POSIX OSs are still around today, and is their popularity growing or declining?
 

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attila77 is offline attila77
2009-04-12 , 16:29
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#82
Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
WAP failed; yet RSS succeeded.
It's a different paradigm in every way except for the network protocol. Wap tried to bring the SAME functionality in a portable form factor.

There are tons of optimalizations for non-desktop browsers. Opera Mobile for example compresses data. Memory footprints of mobile browsers must be low too. The browsers must be optimized for the hardware input (T9, touchscreen, hardware keyboard, stylus). Applications, including browsers, must be optimized for the screen resolution. And even the architecture.
Which of these optimizations do not apply or do not have an equivalend in a desktop browser ?

Furthermore, there is no multi touch possible with stylus
Why exactly ? Seriously, people think about the stylus as a must-be-like-a-pencil form. As we've seen with the Tube, this is not necessary.

These are great features indeed.
Great features that would not be necessary in the first place had you not opted to make an UI design choice (and ones that could equally well be used in a stylus GUI). Apple is a master of presenting great solutions to problems that usually never existed (or were obsoleted ages ago) in the first place.

Also, variable factor zoom is dead easy to do with a single touch stylus, even PocketUniverse from 2000 got that right. The fact that Maemo want for zoom buttons and dialogs does not mean stylus zooms can't be elegant.

Or you'd prefer to run an IRC client which is actually optimized for usage on the tablet.
No. It's not optimized for usage on the tablet. It's rewritten to accomodate a change in UI paradigm. That has nothing to do with tablets. I could make the same argument for voice controlled UIs. You clearly equate finger control with optimized. In what way is using a finger UI over a stylus based one 'optimized' ? What does it do better (except prevent stylus loss) ?

Can you give examples what drives you nuts?
It never allows you to select files/folders (in terms of settings). Download folder ? Internal card/External card/Home. Want something else ? Too bad. Or worse yet:

Tap Settings.
Tap Library.
Tap Media folders.
Tap Audio folders.

I did 4 beautifully animated finger taps just to get to a fixed Internal card/External card/Home choice again. NUTS ! (and to make things worse, it doesn't even allow you to cancel. If you press OK, it rescans. If you press the CANCEL button, it rescans. If you click outside the tab like you would otherwise, it won't budge. NUTS ! And on top of all this it doesn't even do copy/paste. NUTS !

Not really. Usage patterns are limited for a reason because sometimes less is more. You cannot build a car which is good at everything you cannot build an OS or hardware device which is good at everything either. A stylus is a cheap component, but does use space on the device.
As a general approach, it doesn't. Again, the form factor thing. See the Tube example.

Meanwhile, software wise you don't lose any code whatsoever
You just gained a completely new UI to worry about and keep consistent with your 'other' UI. That's a step backwards, unless the new UI gives you functionality you didn't have previously. And if your original app is a run-of-the-mill open source program, you need quite a bit more work to do than plain hildonization.

Maemo 4 tried this, and I believe it failed miserably at it but Nokia learned that they have to decide for either or invest a lot of time and energy into a UI which handles both well.
Can I get an example how exactly Maemo 4 tried this (admit, I'm a n00b, started with Chinook) ? Or, to be more precise, which base maemo/hildon apps conciously used a hybrid approach ? Having big OK/Cancel buttons is not what I'm talking about. It's not about input that you can use with BOTH input devices, but about actively separating input defined by the advantages of each input device.

EDIT: Vagalume is the example UI-wise how I like stuff. A main, finger friendly area for common operations. A stylus friendly settings+advanced functionality menu. Liqbase does something similar too, but it's more linked to stylus by it's core functionality anyway.
Last edited by attila77; 2009-04-12 at 16:45.
 
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GeneralAntilles is offline GeneralAntilles
2009-04-12 , 17:01
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#83
Originally Posted by attila77 View Post
I seriously wish UI designers gave more thought to hybrid stylus/finger interfaces. But I'll go further - not only UI, but hardware designers, too. The device could detect whether the stylus is IN (=finger mode), or OUT (=mouse mode) and adapt both UI and display sensitivity/parameters accordingly.
They did, it's called OS2007, it was basically an utter failure. It sounds nice as an idea but in practice you're limited by both technology and time. Programming two UIs for everything takes a lot of effort and introduces a lot more edge cases and failure points and generally results in a mediocre experience with both rather than an excellent experience with one or the other.

It just doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
Maemo 4 tried this, and I believe it failed miserably at it but Nokia learned that they have to decide for either or invest a lot of time and energy into a UI which handles both well.
Maemo 3, actually, Maemo 4 was the halfway step between it and Maemo 5.

Originally Posted by GeraldKo View Post
Question: Is the RX-51's screen going to be more accurate and more sensitive than the N8*0's? If so, what are the technological advances?
According to the current kernel changelogs, it's a TI panel, much more than that is hard to say without actually using it.

Originally Posted by lma View Post
Actually, the post said "without a lot of change", not straight ports. Ie, this is more about ports like claws, gpodder or xournal rather than running an arm-compiled openoffice on the tablet (although as we know that is also possible). And indeed that is one of the core strengths of the platform IMHO, and at least part of the reason Nokia is pushing home-grown projects upstream, tracks other upstream projects more closely and so on.
None of which is going away with Maemo 5, so what's the fuss about?
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GeneralAntilles is offline GeneralAntilles
2009-04-12 , 17:03
Posts: 5,478 | Thanked: 5,222 times | Joined on Jan 2006 @ St. Petersburg, FL
#84
I'll add this (and then I'm done with these roundabout UI discussions): if Nokia really were totally abandoning stylus input, why in the world would they still be using a resistive touchscreen?
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attila77 is offline attila77
2009-04-12 , 17:22
Posts: 3,319 | Thanked: 5,610 times | Joined on Aug 2008 @ Finland
#85
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
They did, it's called OS2007, it was basically an utter failure. It sounds nice as an idea but in practice you're limited by both technology and time. Programming two UIs for everything takes a lot of effort and introduces a lot more edge cases and failure points and generally results in a mediocre experience with both rather than an excellent experience with one or the other.
It just doesn't make sense.
We're still not talking about the same thing. See my vagalume example. If Canola would do it's settings in a similar (of course visually matched) manner and kept it's current UI for general operations, I'd be super-cool with that, too. You know, the I'd wear a Canola T shirt and hat kind of cool instead of writing NUTS ! about it.

None of which is going away with Maemo 5, so what's the fuss about?
No fuss really, it's just that some people don't understand why other people think an (only) finger based spatial input is an *upgrade* from stylus input. I can understand if someone prefers one over the other, but am under the impression that the well executed *implementation* of a finger oriented UI in the form of iPhoneOS is making people believe that ANY finger oriented approach is in itself superior to ANY stylus oriented (or hybrid) one.
 

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tso is offline tso
2009-04-12 , 17:26
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#86
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
I'll add this (and then I'm done with these roundabout UI discussions): if Nokia really were totally abandoning stylus input, why in the world would they still be using a resistive touchscreen?
because they have a good connection to a supplier of them?
 

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GeneralAntilles is offline GeneralAntilles
2009-04-12 , 17:37
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#87
Originally Posted by attila77 View Post
No fuss really, it's just that some people don't understand why other people think an (only) finger based spatial input is an *upgrade* from stylus input. I can understand if someone prefers one over the other, but am under the impression that the well executed *implementation* of a finger oriented UI in the form of iPhoneOS is making people believe that ANY finger oriented approach is in itself superior to ANY stylus oriented (or hybrid) one.
Because a stylus sucks for mobile usage. Simple as that.
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Laughing Man is offline Laughing Man
2009-04-12 , 18:11
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#88
While I agree that a stylus sucks for mobile usage (not to mention it would take two hands instead of one). I still find the approach of using a stylus for more precise operations versus finger input for more general operations better than finger for all. As atilla77 mentioned, vagalume is a good example of that.
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Originally Posted by ysss View Post
They're maemo and MeeGo...

"Meamo!" sounds like what Zorro would say to catherine zeta jones... after she slaps him for looking at her dirtily...
 
chlettn is offline chlettn
2009-04-12 , 18:26
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#89
Stylus vs. finger debate, take 273...really, this has all been discussed ad absurdum in various threads, and until the new tablets are presented, there's little point in these debates imho.
 

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Bundyo is offline Bundyo
2009-04-12 , 18:39
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#90
And after that it will be too late. In fact it is already.
 

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