Since by and large my post went ignored and folks have gone back to their opposing views on the topics.
This post and accompanying poll are obviously needed for the following reasons.

I can commiserate with folks on both sides of the fence concerning start ups.

- I think its great that our forum is a place for discussion on new technologies, new products, a place where start ups can inform us of their work, give us their timely updates on progress here, and a platform to promote their work.

- I don't think its great the number of accrued free floating corpses of start ups we have throughout the forum, nor the fact that our forum is being used as a recruitment platform to acquire start up funds from either members or guests or diverted to their own website project pages to solicit funds there.
- with ZERO disclaimers of forum liability posted or warnings to investors that for legitimate, unforeseen or mismanaged reasons they may lose their investments.
- nor the fact that discussions in these threads spread throughout the forum in general have increased a level of "upset" on both sides of the topic pertaining to the start up in question, creating the perfect conditions for toxicity to build.

In a perfect world no regulating would be necessary.
But for the sanity of the community:

- to avoid a minimum of bad blood

- to keep the upset of members to a minimum, concerning the topic

- to keep the upset of spokespeople and teams from Start Ups to a minimum, concerning the topic

- to segregate these forum scattered threads from bleeding toxicity concerning the topics, into the community at large.
- a scattered mess in the forum of (some) successful ventures, and (the majority) "coming soon" or stalled for ~nth amount of time or vapor or abandoned or finally cancelled due to whatever circumstances.

- to segregate these forum scattered threads from bleeding toxicity concerning the topics, into the community at large.

- to make sure that liability disclaimers are clearly and prominently posted so as to absolve Talk Maemo.org from any possibility of legal action, since it is Talk Maemo.org endorsing by allowing these start ups..(whether well-meaning or vaporware bait) forum access and use of this place as a platform to directly fund raise, acquire funds or link to their project sites to do the same and lure members and guests away from here.

And lastly
- to segregate these forum scattered threads, topics and posts from bleeding toxicity concerning the nature of said topics, into the community at large.


A poll to act upon , or not, according to the majority of votes.

NOTE PLEASE:
The issue isn't about being "for" or "against" start-ups

concerning the issue of our Talk Maemo.org's possible legal issues concerning liability for these start ups.
if nothing is done concerning this issue, to tie up this "loose end" ,
then sooner or later something is bound to happen.

if nothing is done to try and contain and place all start up conversation into a designated subforum of their own where only there, can they discuss the issue, away from the forum at large, the toxicity surrounding conversation on the subject matter of the start ups will bleed as it is now, into the rest of the forum.

This is a sober and serious issue which can ruin this place.
and something needs to be done.

Dear endsormeans I assume you are referring to this post: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...postcount=1089

I must admit, that I haven't read it, just like so many other posts of you.

I assume you are a native English speaker. And probably that's part of my problem. I don't read most of your posts, because it is very hard for me to follow. Even so I think that my English isn't that bad, it seems not to be good enough.

Anyway, having problems with reading and understanding your posts isn't your problem, but mine, as long as you don't ask for something important.

But after I have read (or at least tried to) this post, It seems, that you see some legal Issues in talking about start ups. Even so I don't see this legal issues, I think this is an important thing. Especially because i might be wrong and there are legal problems.

So I would like to ask you, if there are matters which are of concern, to keep your posts shorter and your language simple enough for forum members which are not native speakers.

Please don't get it wrong, this is no offense in any way, but a polite and sincere request!

hahaha...
No worries Fell
My posts tend to be long for thorough explanation and so misinterpretation and upset doesn't happen.
And you have a very valid point. Many folks aren't native English readers and writers.
I will try to keep writing not "simpler" (since I think all here are hardly that) but um...cleaner?..less verbiage in a different language (English) than many here speak? ..blunter?
I hope that will help.

And Fell...
you do yourself a disservice..
your English is fine...

and no offense was taken at all,

Fact is, everyone's English here is pretty darn good.
To the point I forget ALL the time, that it isn't the 1st language of everyone here.
So I end up writing like I am talking to people raised on English who get every nuance of the language.
My bad.

I second Fellfrosch's post in all accounts and although I can't be certain, I assume just from his user name that he's a native German speaker too. So maybe it's a cultural thing.

In Germany we have the urban legend, that in the US you can't sell a microwave without advising the buyer in the manual to not put living hamsters in it, because otherwise he'll sue you for having killed his pet.
It's an expression of our general perception, that in the US things have to be regulated by laws that we deem matters of course.

Now, I know you're not from the US, but maybe it's a North American thing. I can't tell from this side of the Atlantic.

From my (and probably also Fellfrosch's) POV, it is a matter of course that investing in startups comes at a certain risk.
And while I find it totally appropriate to inform people about that risk, especially those who may have no experience in that regard, I don't feel a need to have that formalized in any way (disclaimer threads, special subforums, all the moderator's work this causes).
That doesn't mean I'd be opposed to the idea. I just think, the ends don't justify the means.

My view is one of restraint thus far.
and my vote was a challenge for me.
Rationally I think these issues should be looked into properly to avoid calamity.
And voted so.

Wasn't easy since my gut tells me that concerning this potential nightmare to..
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/dccc25d...1jP7cTbNE.copy


and vote for immediate segregation before something does happen, on the grounds of "toxicity containment" and for our own "due diligence" in proper disclaimers warning members and guests and thus relieve ourselves utterly from any legal liability ...
to protect our community

And yes...
It isn't just an American issue with suing (though they are among the worst nations for it).
There are limits and constraints in Canada to legally pursuing others. It isn't the wild west here. Within reason, people and organizations can be sued for just cause though....depending on the situation.

And TBH the proliferation of countries and peoples that pursue lawsuits suing ...isn't just a North American issue either.

The laws may be different for the E.U. , but there must be some issue of forum responsibility and legality for the posters it allows and their content, otherwise why is the E.U. going after all the social media platforms and holding them directly responsible for the posters they have?
Isn't that the current mandate of the E.U. right now?
Holding the platforms responsible for the posters and their posters content?
I have been following the issue and I know it isn't just about the E.U. holding platforms accountable for copywrit content , but covers a wide range of reasons and issues.
Is our forum somehow immune?
Do we have magic underwear that protects our forum from the E.U. commission descending on it at any time and telling us to enforce their requirements?
I haven't even heard of such discussion out of our members concerning the E.U. commission enforcement agenda, and making sure we comply.
THAT is yet another forum issue that seems to have blindly flown under our collective radar, that we should be discussing and debating and discovering where other possible "weak points" in our forum need addressing, and possibly rectifying.

In short.
We need to be wise and canny and be proactive, really look at our (now) multiple issues... before possible calamity strikes.
Being reactive may be too little too late,
too costly,
or take too much manpower for us to cope with ..
for our small community to handle.

I don't really see the point. The social media platforms are getting problems, when there are - as you have written - copyright violations, or when there is hate speech or when they violate data protection rules (which they do all the time). But what has that to do with a discussion about a start up and it's product? Where are the legal traps?

@sulu you assumed right

I don't know?
There may very well be...or may very well not be any issue.
Are you so certain?
You have studied the legalease of the issue and can say with certainty that there is no fear of community liability?
Or for that matter.. of an E.U. commission walking in and finding fault that we haven't even considered ...because NO ONE has even brought the topic up here for scrutiny before?
To my understanding these issues have never been raised .
Is it not worth the attention to find out?
Or are you just "that" certain on topics never considered here.

Who exactly would be held liable? The council? Maemo Community e.V.? I think all of your questions should be directed at either, or both, if they still exist. Both entities have been inactive for quite some time. Council elections for periods Q2 2018 and Q1 2019 never occurred. We seem to have been abandoned by the powers that be.

I'm not sure if we need disclaimers or if anyone can be sued, but I do agree with many of the points raised by endsormeans. There are problems on TMO that could be addressed, "for the sanity of the community", if you will. I'm all for a good debate but it's got to the point where insults and sarky comments have become a regular occurrence. Pointless infighting seems to be the norm now, and it's not just limited to start-up related threads. Not naming any names, the situation isn't helped by the fact that some of the instigators of this behaviour are forum moderators, which renders the "Report This post" button useless. An increasing number of threads these days are a waste of time because they are just filled with speculation, pointless bickering and the like. I'm quite bored of the TMO of late to be honest and I'm sure others probably are too. It's only a matter of time before people stop visiting and this forum is reduced to nothing.

EDIT: Just to be clear, banter and humour are fine, I've no problems with that. The more, the better!

That is a disturbing issue unto itself.
concerning the entities who are to run this place...
And yes...inevitably they should be involved in studying and answering such questions pertinent to our continued existence.

I have only noticed the severity of the nastiness in the start up discussions, and haven't really examined other areas here ..
It seemed more prominent to me in that field of interest.
I now will be looking about in other threads for such behaviour...
I am relieved in only the fact that it isn't just myself noticing this behaviour...otherwise I would rather be completely wrong and believe everyone is getting along fine.
But I see the world at large pressing in here at TMO
In the form of the contagion plaguing the planet now.
The lack of civility toward one another.
The inability of social graces.
"civilization" is built upon the foundation of civil behaviour of people to one another.
And that is disappearing from this world at a very rapid rate.
If folks grandparents (and for the younger people their great grandparents) were around today, they would be telling many of them to mind their tongues, behave, show some dignity, restraint, allowance for others their opinion, think before they speak what their words will result in.
But I think many nowadays never grew up with what used to be called "good manners" , and instead grew up being told to speak their mind before thinking through the ramifications of their words.
I think wicket that if it is as pervasive throughout the forum as you say, then TMO is a microcosm of the same worldly problems today.
If such is the case.
And if it cannot be stamped out ..and proper dialogue and proper conversation cannot be made the standard the way it should be.
Then ...even though I dislike the fact that it would mean fewer folks in the forum, perhaps a more severe segregation ..of the forum is an answer if the toxicity issues cannot be rectified.
such as division of the forum...a hard separation ..
Maemo oriented devices, os's, software and discussion ranging from the 770 to the n9 and os's ranging from the first to the most recent maemo leste.
On one side of the TMO fence
and on the other ..all else.
Or at worst purge all else...other than Maemo oriented discussion.
The sub forums, the threads the posts, that have no maemo relation.
make the place Talk Maemo in actuality.
That may flush out the worst behaviour if there isn't a platform for it.

Have you noticed in maemo specific oriented threads any of this behaviour ...wicket?
Or have you noticed this only in topics other than maemo?
Or have you noticed it in both?

I am curious all around concerning the issue...
I would like to understand it better, and figure out a way of dealing with it before our place here is in jeopardy .

Now that you mention it, it mostly occurs in Jolla/Sailfish related threads and it's normally the same usual suspects. There is overlap though. Some of them cross the border and venture into Maemo and other threads. The Purism thread springs to mind.

Here's an example of a non start-up thread (Sailfish related):

https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=100638

What a way to welcome a new member! Someone simply trying to sell something, followed by a flurry of posts, criticising, some even insulting. Even after I pointed this out, the trolling didn't stop. Thankfully tommo summed it up perfectly.