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gryvn is offline gryvn
2012-03-22 , 19:39
Posts: 37 | Thanked: 12 times | Joined on Mar 2012
#11
Thanks, Copernicus. I came at the n810 with no Linux background and apparently some fairly naive expectations of how to wring more usefulness out of it. It presented itself to my expectations as a mobile information device similar to the IPAQs and such that I've used forever and even hacked at a bit, but there seems to be an extra engineering degree required before I can bend it to my will. And as I said, I hadn't been aware that Maemo was just basically Linux, or I'd had RTFM long since. I knew there was an evolution from Linux but figured it was a unique OS with its own syntax.

The instructions for a lot of the applications are Greek without approaching them from the Linux user's viewpoint, so I've wasted a lot of time.

I'll take your advice and get a grounding in Linux concepts before trying to get this thing to do something new.
 
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Copernicus is offline Copernicus
2012-03-22 , 20:05
Posts: 1,986 | Thanked: 7,698 times | Joined on Dec 2010 @ Dayton, Ohio
#12
Originally Posted by gryvn View Post
I hadn't been aware that Maemo was just basically Linux, or I'd had RTFM long since.
I gotta admit, I made the same assumption a few years back -- I've actually been a Unix-head for years and years, but I'd assumed that every pocketable device out there had some unique wacky OS. (I owned an iPhone for years, and enjoyed it for what it did, but never really got into messing with it.) So a few years ago my brother showed me his N810, and I just figured it was yet another iOS clone of some sort. I was totally amazed when I discovered that it had an honest-to-god shell, and all the commands I'd been using for the past two decades worked just fine on it. I've been hooked on the Nokia NITs ever since then...

The instructions for a lot of the applications are Greek without approaching them from the Linux user's viewpoint, so I've wasted a lot of time.

I'll take your advice and get a grounding in Linux concepts before trying to get this thing to do something new.
Yeah, unfortunately, this is the biggest hassle with Unix -- learning it really demands more of your time up-front than any other modern operating system. To be honest, though, this is a side effect of the fact that it provides the user with more control than any other OS; and in order to make effective use of that power, you've got to deal with a lot more options and downright grungy details than in other systems.
 

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towhatend is offline towhatend
2012-03-22 , 20:19
Posts: 230 | Thanked: 185 times | Joined on Jul 2010 @ Sweden
#13
Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
Alright, I just can't take this any more. If someone wanted to run a simple google query, they'd run a simple google query! The whole point of asking questions on a forum board populated by actual human beings is to communicate with actual human beings. If all you have to say is "you should enter your request into a lookup-table that associates words with popular websites" (which is all that google is), I gotta say, why are you even here? Just let Google run your Maemo forum account, and go do something useful with your time...

On the original poster's topic: the world of the Unix command line is far more rich, varied, and honestly wild-west than the DOS world ever became. To start with, there isn't really just one command line: there are many different "shells", each with their own advocates. By default, Maemo is using a shell called "ash" that comes with the "busybox" package. (Here's the wikipedia link for ash.) You can also download a very popular shell called "bash", if you prefer.

If you're completely new to Unix shell scripts, it is probably more helpful to work through a tutorial of the basic concepts behind shells than to just try to memorize a few useful commands. This website provides a very basic introduction to the shell, but includes some useful information about file, I/O, and job controls that have many subtle differences from how DOS does things:

http://linuxcommand.org/learning_the_shell.php
Yes, linuxcommand.org is a good site. Here is another one:
http://www.funtoo.org/wiki/Linux_Fundamentals%2C_Part_1

And:
http://www.playterm.org/

If bored, take a minute and read this:
http://www.reddit.com/r/commandline
 
gryvn is offline gryvn
2012-03-22 , 21:13
Posts: 37 | Thanked: 12 times | Joined on Mar 2012
#14
"you've got to deal with a lot more options and downright grungy details than in other systems."

I love grungy and hands-on, but I kinda like to know what I'm getting into. I've fallen into some stuff here that's very complex and time-consuming that was evidently presented as a solution to some basic user needs, but which proved to be advanced and byzantine and has me setting up server/client heavy artillery to shoot at flies, so to speak.

I love a good chewy hack but I wish there were a FEW more signposts that read "leaving practical usage territory and moving into regions where you are spending days doing stuff that's way more time consuming than the end result is worth, and which won't really solve your problem anyway". I'm not serious in that wish, I know this is the open-source universe and only the strong survive, but it's tough burning the midnight oil by the gallon when you're just trying to get some work done and just this once, don't really WANT to know how to code it yourself from scratch.

Ignore me. Just b itchin'. I'm constitutionally unable to refuse a challenge so I'll be slogging through it.
Last edited by gryvn; 2012-03-22 at 21:15.
 

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anthonie is offline anthonie
2012-03-22 , 21:26
Posts: 1,048 | Thanked: 1,127 times | Joined on Jan 2010 @ Amsterdam
#15
Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
Alright, I just can't take this any more.
Well, I'm not going to get into a rant right now, a waste of energy but I find your posting insulting on so many levels, I can't even begin to describe where you go wrong.

Anyhow, OP prefers to be spoonfed, while my look at the world is that it's pointless to feed people fish if you can teach them how to fish.

And I did give some clear pointers by linking the thread with collected command line-works that I have created earlier, and by linking to the linuxcommand site.

But most of all: any tech-person who doesn't know how to use a search engine is worthless unless he or she is omnipotent.

basic user needs
Command line is not equal to "basic user needs". Far from.
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Hariainm is offline Hariainm
2012-03-22 , 21:30
Posts: 485 | Thanked: 708 times | Joined on Feb 2010 @ Galiza
#16
Originally Posted by ioan View Post
Put this in your favorites ;-)

http://i.imgur.com/CJkR9.png
Code:
rm -rf / Make computer faster
LOLWUT?
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gryvn is offline gryvn
2012-03-22 , 21:33
Posts: 37 | Thanked: 12 times | Joined on Mar 2012
#17
Anthonie, you seem to be an unhappy person. I don't know command-line scripting but I'm a fair hand at lay psychology. Would you like to talk to someone about your anger issues?
 
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woody14619 is offline woody14619
2012-03-22 , 21:58
Posts: 1,455 | Thanked: 3,309 times | Joined on Dec 2009 @ Rochester, NY
#18
Originally Posted by gryvn View Post
Would you like to talk to someone about your anger issues?
Wait. How would he find someone in his area to talk to about that? Being that there's no way to search for such things on the internet. I mean, if you're right and there was no way for you to find this out without starting your own thread, then how is he to do the same? (PS: How did you find out about this site? Did you google it?)

Lets be real here. You asked a simple question that Google or any other search engine (or even a simple power search here) could have easily answered. And yes, this is a user forum, but when every new person coming is asks the same basic questions, over and over again, it gets old. (And yes, this has been asked in at least 4 other threads before this...)

The solution: Either stop answering and leave the community, or answer in a way that will make the poster STOP asking simple questions that are easy to find in an automated way. If you spoon-feed them, they just keep doing it. Yes, negative reinforcement isn't pleasant, but it's quite effective.

Don't think that's an issue? I invite you to do a search on this forum and find threads started by people that were "spoon fed" early on and the royal pain they became simple because they came to expect their every whim to be answered directly, in a new thread. There are tons. It would also give you some practice with the search options on the site...

PS: Your sarcastic replies indicate that you too follow this approach to things in life at times. You're not a stranger to it's use, as indicated by the quickness in which you utilized it. Maybe it's time to stop whining about things and take your lumps for asking something a 5 year old could have told you by checking google. By continuing to act like a spoiled 5 year old, you're simply increasing the chance that you wind up on the ignore list of people that could actually be helpful to you later.
 

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anthonie is offline anthonie
2012-03-22 , 22:23
Posts: 1,048 | Thanked: 1,127 times | Joined on Jan 2010 @ Amsterdam
#19
Originally Posted by gryvn View Post
Anthonie, you seem to be an unhappy person. I don't know command-line scripting but I'm a fair hand at lay psychology. Would you like to talk to someone about your anger issues?
Couple of things. There is a reason why far more knowledgeable people than myself are usually not seen in threads like these: They are fed up with answering the same stupid questions over and over again. If you don't want to do even the most basic of research, why should they waste their time on questions that could've been answered within miliseconds? Even more so in the light of complaints about their "tone of voice".

Secondly, once more, I did give you pointers in my first reaction. Number one a list of books on the topic, that I have named and collected in a zip file, two, the link to a beginners-tutorial on terminals in general.

All you had to do in that list of books is select the name and right click to google it. And about the tutorial, true, it's not targeted at busybox, but bash is installable on the n900, so the advice was not useless, or so I thought. If only you would have cared to read better.

You know what? I'll spoonfeed you and link it again.

http://linuxcommand.org/

Now, please, don't ask me to chew it for you...


While we're at the personal level now, anyway, I don't really appreciate you making personal remarks. If that is in any way a measure for your "fair hand of psychology", I do not want to know any more of it. I had a nice, sunny day, believe me. I thought we were having a meta tech-discussion here, not some name calling event. You don't know me, but I do know a little of your assumptions now.

Lastly, you seem to miss the point that I was helping you, and you only got upset about my remark that with fairly little hassle, you could've helped yourself. Now tell me, what's wrong with that? I didn't even shout rtfm at you. I gave you no "rm -rf /*" command.

So quit whining, and take the knowledge you can get. If you want to pick people's brains, learn which parts to pěnch, and which not. Especially if you can't even ask a decent opening question to begin with.

Now enough of the matter, and back to topic.

You could have asked the question by now, "Busybox, what's busybox?". Unless you already knew, of course.

Psssst... free knowledge? Care for a shot? Psssst...

http://wiki.maemo.org/Terminal
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Last edited by anthonie; 2012-03-22 at 22:25.
 

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Copernicus is offline Copernicus
2012-03-22 , 22:33
Posts: 1,986 | Thanked: 7,698 times | Joined on Dec 2010 @ Dayton, Ohio
#20
Originally Posted by gryvn View Post
I love grungy and hands-on, but I kinda like to know what I'm getting into. I've fallen into some stuff here that's very complex and time-consuming that was evidently presented as a solution to some basic user needs, but which proved to be advanced and byzantine and has me setting up server/client heavy artillery to shoot at flies, so to speak.
I feel your pain; I think everybody who codes for a living runs into this more than you'd expect...

I love a good chewy hack but I wish there were a FEW more signposts that read "leaving practical usage territory and moving into regions where you are spending days doing stuff that's way more time consuming than the end result is worth, and which won't really solve your problem anyway". I'm not serious in that wish, I know this is the open-source universe and only the strong survive, but it's tough burning the midnight oil by the gallon when you're just trying to get some work done and just this once, don't really WANT to know how to code it yourself from scratch.
You know, it's weird; back when I started fooling with personal computers, with an Apple ][+ (and man, I guess that does mean I'm really old), the command line was the only way to deal with the machine, but since everybody focussed on it (and, to be honest, it couldn't do all that much anyway), it really was easy to work with. Now, the world has bifurcated into the Steve Jobs "a computer should be as simple as a toaster" camp and the open source "real men compile their own kernels" camp. Even the cell phone world is that way now -- you can choose iOS, or the similar Android "it's got Linux, but so heavily locked down, you'd never know it" option, or the "of course I hack my phone with my own kernel, everybody should" camp.

There really ought to be a middle-ground somewhere between a user interface based around finger-painting and one based on kernel-hacking.
 

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