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2012-04-04
, 14:38
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Posts: 3,105 |
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Joined on Jul 2007
@ Mountain View (CA, USA)
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#62
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Originally Posted by ivgalvez
Sorry, I don't have time to get involved in this discussion or find solutions. Nokia doesn't have an opinion about the Community QA process, neither is pushing or stopping any approach. It is entirely up to this community.
I really appreciate you are again on board Quim. I'm pretty sure you will help to push things to be done.
Could you please take a look at the Supertester initiative and help us to improve promotion of packages, with further discussion though mailing list.
When that QA process was created Extras was the best destination for most individual developers since the Ovi Store was almost a no go. Now the situation is different, and individuals can publish easily apps as long as they pass through the QA requirements. In this context maybe having a Quality indicator as Felipe has indicated at maemo-community would be enough? As said, it is up to you.
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2012-04-04
, 14:59
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Posts: 3,105 |
Thanked: 11,088 times |
Joined on Jul 2007
@ Mountain View (CA, USA)
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#63
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I don't have anything to say about https://bugs.maemo.org/12284
This is nothing related to Nokia. My personal and improvised thought is: a package is in extras-devel but doesn't show up in the packages interface. What is the cause? What are the consequences? How many users are affected by this? Why is this a big problem for the community?
I can see a problem in that URL, but only between the lines. Maybe that' the topic you want to discuss.
Look, all this situation has certain flavor reminding a lot more sour discussions we had when Internet Tablet Talk moved to become the talk.maemo.org that now feels so natural and intrinsic to theMaemo community. At the time we could have long threads and attempts offorki.g out because of a lack of a dark theme. But was the dark theme the problem?
The generation that now defends Fremantle so adamantly actually absorbed or displaced a good percentage of the generation that was trying to bring Internet Tablets and Diablo forward, or Hacker Editions, or many other things that for an average N900 owner didn't feel like a priority.
I wonder if there us any N9 only user or developer following this thread. In statistical terms they could be on par or in majority compared to all the previous users together. How much do the Council candidates care about them?
This is nothing related to Nokia. My personal and improvised thought is: a package is in extras-devel but doesn't show up in the packages interface. What is the cause? What are the consequences? How many users are affected by this? Why is this a big problem for the community?
I can see a problem in that URL, but only between the lines. Maybe that' the topic you want to discuss.
Look, all this situation has certain flavor reminding a lot more sour discussions we had when Internet Tablet Talk moved to become the talk.maemo.org that now feels so natural and intrinsic to theMaemo community. At the time we could have long threads and attempts offorki.g out because of a lack of a dark theme. But was the dark theme the problem?
The generation that now defends Fremantle so adamantly actually absorbed or displaced a good percentage of the generation that was trying to bring Internet Tablets and Diablo forward, or Hacker Editions, or many other things that for an average N900 owner didn't feel like a priority.
I wonder if there us any N9 only user or developer following this thread. In statistical terms they could be on par or in majority compared to all the previous users together. How much do the Council candidates care about them?
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2012-04-04
, 15:45
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Posts: 11,700 |
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Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#64
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Originally Posted by qgil
Sometimes these conversations make me feel like I'm in a tiny minority.
I wonder if there us any N9 only user or developer following this thread. In statistical terms they could be on par or in majority compared to all the previous users together. How much do the Council candidates care about them?
I have loved every one of my devices in this family, from my original pre-release 770 to my slick N9s. But for the most part it's nostalgia that has me hanging on to the older tablets, since for whatever reason (Flash not updated, GPS app abandoned, etc) they have not kept up with my day-to-day needs.
I have played around with N9 development and starting to get a handle on QML. If only it was as easy to develop for the older devices, I might come up with some projects...
Anyway, like Quim, I'd like to see council candidates who avoid getting mired in the muck of How Things Could Have Been and focus on today's realities. And if that includes finding ways to bring new life to old devices, great! Conversely if it means forming a bridge to opentablets.org, than I'm definitely on board.
Regardless, let's find focus.
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Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2012-04-04
, 17:50
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Posts: 5,028 |
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Joined on Mar 2011
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#65
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Originally Posted by javispedro
Can't agree. Nokia is paying Nemein, who should take care of technical problems, yet, at the same time, Nokia representative (qgil) says that Nemein isn't answering for their work to Nokia!
What has Nokia to do with anything of this? WE (as in, the previous councils) are the ones who created most of that. (As a concrete example, I was the one who decided to set up the updated debian squeeze toolchain on the fremantle autobuilder).
Make the criticisms concrete, put the blame were it belongs, and propose a solution.
They aren't also answering to us, so, when problems arise, we must rely on Nemein's "good will", or we can GTFO. who created that problematic situation, Nokia, or Council? I will also like to point out, that my direct question about this matter (presented in last post) was left unanswered. Thats the first example of situation, where Nokia's paying the bills leave us with hands tied and roadblocks for smooth development.
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qgil, I think Your post shows exactly, where we can have hard time "communicating". For us, Maemo/Fremantle is main target, while providing as much compatibility for Diablo&older as we can, when there is enough developers. IMO, Maemo Council is - as name suggest - *Maemo* Council. i feel no interest or need in representing Harmattan/Tizen/whatsnot, as in my - and many other people involved in discussion here - those OS'es (and devices behind it) are a step back, at best. Maybe Harmattan should get it's own Council?
I agree that it's possible to "shift"; interest to other platform, but only *if* main Community contributors will feel that it's appropriate. And, trust me on that, I'm perfectly sure, that it would be Mer and Nemo 100x time more than Harmattan/Tizen/whatever Nokia's current politic have for us.
---
Of course I have no blazing idea, who will get elected in upcoming votes, yet, from my side, You can expect representing Maemo/Fremantle (including CSSU, kernel-power and similar projects) Communities, + Diablo & older when doable and appropriate. *NOT* Nokia's new toys.
Of course, ti doesn't mean that I think bad of people who are involved in both. If someone have enough time - it's fine, but in my opinion, Harmattan+ part isn't and shouldn't be of any interest for Council.
I also feel, that if election will result in choosing people with similar view for things, it'll be clear sign of Community supporting (at least by majority) such road. That's also the point, why I was so interested in having votes instead of "consensus passing" - Nokia representative that just left position for You, used to disregard SD69 election via consensus (see logs from last Council & Nokia meetings), despite fact, that he hadn't right to. Now, I'm quite sure that we're going to have council with strong Community mandate.
There is point, where we agree initially, I must admit - next 6-7 months are going to be interesting times, for sure.
/Estel
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N900's aluminum backcover / body replacement
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N900's HDMI-Out
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-
Measure battery's real capacity on-device
-
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-
Hardware's mods research is costly. To support my work, please consider donating. Thank You!
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2012-04-04
, 18:18
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Posts: 415 |
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Joined on Jan 2009
@ Finland
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#66
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Originally Posted by qgil
I'm not a N9 only user but I'd like to see this place to welcome Harmattan developers/users as well. Actually I though they were already welcome since there are sections for those discussions. So I'd also expect them to be presented in the council.
I wonder if there us any N9 only user or developer following this thread. In statistical terms they could be on par or in majority compared to all the previous users together. How much do the Council candidates care about them?
To me it seems that the device generation transition just causes more noise this time around since there are more n900 users than there were 770 or n8x0 users but essentially it's the thing as with the previous transitions. It's Newton's 3rd law of motion - "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."
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2012-04-04
, 18:24
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Posts: 1,455 |
Thanked: 3,309 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Rochester, NY
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#67
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Originally Posted by Estel
This part I think is reasonably in line. We need some type of mechanism within Nokia, if for no other reason than to make sure Nemein remains responsive. If no one is answering at Nemein, we need someone that can get their attention.
They aren't also answering to us, so, when problems arise, we must rely on Nemein's "good will", or we can GTFO. who created that problematic situation, Nokia, or Council?
Originally Posted by Estel
This, I'm not quite in agreement with. I think there's room for any of the "new" projects (Harmattan/Tizen/etc) if those groups want to be here and the existing tools can be configured to allow both to exist peacefully. With Diablo and friends, the tool chain remained similar across each offering, as one was the base for the other. In that reguard, I think Harmattan could easily be added in. I'm not sure the same can be said if Tizen, for technical reasons.
For us, Maemo/Fremantle is main target, while providing as much compatibility for Diablo&older as we can, when there is enough developers. IMO, Maemo Council is - as name suggest - *Maemo* Council.
I think the main reason Harmattan isn't here is because they specifically wanted to break off into their own group. They have their own site, their own tool chain, and their own identity. I understand that all of that is in flux, but sadly the damage is done. Because of that separation period, and the idea (promoted on both sides) that its' an "us vs them" situation, regrouping would be difficult, though not impossible. I think there needs to be a desire for Harmattan people to want to come back though, and so far I'm not seeing at lot of that. (Or at most I'm seeing a reluctant "if we have to" approach.)
Originally Posted by Estel
I'm not sure a simple selection of a specific person within a set (especially a small set, choosing 3 out of 4 for example) constitutes a "mandate". People get very caught up in this notion that because they were selected, it was clearly because of this specific topic or that specific stance, when in fact it may be that the person simple disagreed more with another topic/stance of another potential candidate. Whenever you have a small choice, where the number of candidates is less than two or three times the number of positions being filled, I don't think it's possible to discern a clear mandate from a community 500 times that size.
Now, I'm quite sure that we're going to have council with strong Community mandate.
I do, however, feel it's important to discuss such things. Both because we need input from everyone involved, and because it allows people more information about where the process is going or could go, especially when potential candidates for Council are involved.
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2012-04-04
, 18:54
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Posts: 5,028 |
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Joined on Mar 2011
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#68
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Originally Posted by woody14619
+1. Constructive collaboration - always welcomed, after all, we're inclusive.
This, I'm not quite in agreement with. I think there's room for any of the "new" projects (Harmattan/Tizen/etc) if those groups want to be here and the existing tools can be configured to allow both to exist peacefully. With Diablo and friends, the tool chain remained similar across each offering, as one was the base for the other. In that reguard, I think Harmattan could easily be added in. I'm not sure the same can be said if Tizen, for technical reasons.
I think the main reason Harmattan isn't here is because they specifically wanted to break off into their own group. They have their own site, their own tool chain, and their own identity. I understand that all of that is in flux, but sadly the damage is done. Because of that separation period, and the idea (promoted on both sides) that its' an "us vs them" situation, regrouping would be difficult, though not impossible. I think there needs to be a desire for Harmattan people to want to come back though, and so far I'm not seeing at lot of that. (Or at most I'm seeing a reluctant "if we have to" approach.)
Yet, if it would look like:
HarmaTizenwhatever is more recent, so it should slowly takeover
I think, that Nokia misunderstood few things here. For them, transition to Harmattan etc. focused community is natural, just like N7xx-n8xx to N900. Thus, we had actions like lending N950's to Maemo's developers, ideas of incorporating appsformeego here, (when nokia's execs lost interest in meego users - c'mon, we can call things realistically here, without all marketing "blabla") and so goes on.
For us, it's not natural nor similar to Maemo4-Maemo5 transition. For many people, new Nokia devices aren't choice to consider over N900/Maemo, due to decisions made by Nokia's high-ups (I don't think it's good place to prove again that N900 > N9/N950). Again, I don't have *anything* against peaceful coexistence and collaboration, yet, any "takeover" ideas should be fought with fire by Maemo Council, IMO.
By the way, "peaceful existence" consist of many small or bigger things - from cosmetic (yet, very irritating) matters - like forum "Active Topics" option, without possibility to filter by Maemo/Harmattan content - to "big" things like Nokia's showing will to incorporate us with appsformeego, without even considering to talk with Maemo Council about this (I don't said that it must be a bad idea - generally, no one ever *asked* what we think about it).
^
This, + more important problem, like non-contactable Nokia's representative (I think Matti) - sorry for that word - screwed this on whole line - despite his statements, he wasn't even willing to answer invitations to meeting with Council, after only one and unfinished meeting during last 6 months...), and - even further important - uncountable people hired by Nokia to maintain technical side of infrastructure, resulted in strong "movement" into separating us as stand alone project (like LibreOffice separated from OpenOffice - having in mind scale differences). By the way, I'm pretty sure, that Matti wasn't even aware of how popular this "roadmap" become in Maemo Community - which,also shows, that there was Communication breakdown, not only some minor problems.
---
Past things aside, I really hope, and - maybe naively - *do* believe, that with qgil taking active role now, we'll be able to re-establish successful (for developers, testers, casual users etc) collaboration. Yet, respect for us as a Community - with our right to decide what we want to focus on, or not - is a must. Also, despite our trust for qgil as a person, the same amount of "reliability" isn't common - to say at least - with Nokia, so keeping a backup plan B (proceeded further than just "few ideas") is Council responsibility, IMO.
At least, it can't hurt - not to mention, that even considering "surprise shut off" as a impossible scenarios, there are other, even worse things possible - like keeping current stagnation with infrastructure maintaining = need to move into our infrastructure no matter if Nokia's is willing to pay the bills or not. Bills aren't everything.
Originally Posted by woody14619
That's life. from my side, I do my best to express my intentions as possible Council member, so others have enough time to nominate and - possibly - choose opposite candidate, if they feel that's appropriate. Thinking like "we have to low number of candidates, so Council don't have right to make important, shaping future of project decisions" is just a way to send us nowhere, following wind-up scenario.
I'm not sure a simple selection of a specific person within a set (especially a small set, choosing 3 out of 4 for example) constitutes a "mandate". People get very caught up in this notion that because they were selected, it was clearly because of this specific topic or that specific stance, when in fact it may be that the person simple disagreed more with another topic/stance of another potential candidate. Whenever you have a small choice, where the number of candidates is less than two or three times the number of positions being filled, I don't think it's possible to discern a clear mandate from a community 500 times that size.
I do, however, feel it's important to discuss such things. Both because we need input from everyone involved, and because it allows people more information about where the process is going or could go, especially when potential candidates for Council are involved.[/b]
After all, no one is forcing plentora of people to nominate, especially with extended (by a month) nomination period. If no one cares to do it, we can assume that they're satisfied with current candidates. If they aren't, but also don't care to move a** and do dirty job as Council member (SD69 could tell You, how dirty it can be) - well, then, it's their problem.
/Estel
__________________
N900's aluminum backcover / body replacement
-
N900's HDMI-Out
-
Camera cover MOD
-
Measure battery's real capacity on-device
-
TrueCrypt 7.1 | ereswap | bnf
-
Hardware's mods research is costly. To support my work, please consider donating. Thank You!
N900's aluminum backcover / body replacement
-
N900's HDMI-Out
-
Camera cover MOD
-
Measure battery's real capacity on-device
-
TrueCrypt 7.1 | ereswap | bnf
-
Hardware's mods research is costly. To support my work, please consider donating. Thank You!
Last edited by Estel; 2012-04-04 at 19:03.
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2012-04-04
, 19:04
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Posts: 1,436 |
Thanked: 3,144 times |
Joined on Jul 2005
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#69
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Let me give my personal opinion here. I view the Council as the one who represents the community. When there are qualms, restlessness, and/or unsureness, they are the ones who gets the facts, contact the correct people, and convey them back to the community. What the current council has failed to do is just about that -- communicate.
How hard is it really to contact X-Fade for example? I pinged him earlier this morning and notified him about timoph's thread and minutes later he was there on the thread replying.
mairas (of Nokia) has mentioned that he has attended *every* council meeting, and yet how did it happen that nothing was conveyed?
Reading through the "Ask the Council" thread, I'm surprised to see that this Plan B idea originally came from the Council. The idea was left in that thread and nothing was posted anywhere else. Imagine how confused I was when I got this email from the council:
I never responded to that email since I wanted to get more info. I think I got the clarification I needed.
Anyway, please be careful using "we" or "us" on your posts since you might not be really representing what the majority wants. How can anyone be really sure "what the community wants" if the community was never asked nor informed? This is probably the best time to do these things. I hope the current council can facilitate this task and at least post something in the Council blog so everything is black and white. I think the future direction of Maemo.org, with all the options discussed. I'm sure not everyone will be happy with the results but hey, we need to hear the voice of majority of the community and not just from 5 folks.
Oh and please, technically I'm part of Nemein. I don't get instructions from Nokia. I do my job to make this forum run smoothly since it was moved from Internet Tablet Talk (technically from day 1).
Last edited by Reggie; 2012-04-04 at 19:14.
How hard is it really to contact X-Fade for example? I pinged him earlier this morning and notified him about timoph's thread and minutes later he was there on the thread replying.
mairas (of Nokia) has mentioned that he has attended *every* council meeting, and yet how did it happen that nothing was conveyed?
Reading through the "Ask the Council" thread, I'm surprised to see that this Plan B idea originally came from the Council. The idea was left in that thread and nothing was posted anywhere else. Imagine how confused I was when I got this email from the council:
Reggie,
Just a note to let you know that some people are getting closer to moving some stuff from maemo.org to a new companion site at maemocommunity.org. No Nokia $$ are depended on for the new site so it may be that we leave t.m.o. where it is and adopt (by necessity) less expensive communication mechanism (or maybe just a front like you have at itt.com). If you have any thoughts with respect to what to do with the forum, now would be a opportune time to express them.
Rob
Anyway, please be careful using "we" or "us" on your posts since you might not be really representing what the majority wants. How can anyone be really sure "what the community wants" if the community was never asked nor informed? This is probably the best time to do these things. I hope the current council can facilitate this task and at least post something in the Council blog so everything is black and white. I think the future direction of Maemo.org, with all the options discussed. I'm sure not everyone will be happy with the results but hey, we need to hear the voice of majority of the community and not just from 5 folks.
Oh and please, technically I'm part of Nemein. I don't get instructions from Nokia. I do my job to make this forum run smoothly since it was moved from Internet Tablet Talk (technically from day 1).
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Last edited by Reggie; 2012-04-04 at 19:14.
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2012-04-04
, 19:10
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Joined on Mar 2010
@ Sofia,Bulgaria
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#70
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Originally Posted by timoph
But of course, who said Harmattan developers are not welcome here? Actually I think people like marxian, creamy lady, javispedro etc have never been accepted badly after they switched the platform or targeting both
I'm not a N9 only user but I'd like to see this place to welcome Harmattan developers/users as well. Actually I though they were already welcome since there are sections for those discussions. So I'd also expect them to be presented in the council.
To me it seems that the device generation transition just causes more noise this time around since there are more n900 users than there were 770 or n8x0 users but essentially it's the thing as with the previous transitions. It's Newton's 3rd law of motion - "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."
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All times are GMT. The time now is 08:39.
Hildon is a GTK+ extension and it was created and maintained by GTK+ developers. The GNOME Foundation is the home of all things GTK+, and it's an open community as well. When Nokia announced the shift to Qt, some of us could get a budget to upstream Hildon changes and help GTK+ developers to work on a scenario where their apps would work on top of Harmattan / MeeGo.
The plan was discussed in various places here and at the GNOME Mobile list, and was also discussed at the Maemo Summit in Amsterdam, in a small but full room with a good representation on “people here” that were also familar or directly involved in the GNOME project.
If you have any problem with the process or the result that's fine, but the role of Nokia here was to fund whatever approach the community decided to take, and do the payment through the GNOME Foundation since it was the only legal entity that could take the money - apart from a company, but I didn't want to be Nokia the one selecting it.
That's my point of view of the story.
http://maemo.org/profile/view/qgil/ + http://qt-project.org