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lma is offline lma
2012-07-14 , 19:18
Posts: 2,802 | Thanked: 4,491 times | Joined on Nov 2007
#601
Originally Posted by w00t View Post
When you're paying the costs for all that SW work, you can't possibly compete with someone else who can grab exactly the same product and slap it on devices at the same price (or cheaper) as your device.
Why not? I'm probably weird, but I would like to see vendors trying to "differentiate" and compete less on the task switcher or having the absolute lowest price and more on areas that matter like hardware specs and features, build quality, after-sales support, and yes, openness and collaboration.

On the PC world everyone can grab exactly the same version of Windows (or Ubuntu, whatever) and slap it on devices, and yet the buyers still can make perfectly rational and intelligent choices and the makers of the cheapest models aren't the market leaders. Why are "mobile" customers automatically treated like idiots?
 
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w00t is offline w00t
2012-07-14 , 19:41
Posts: 1,055 | Thanked: 4,107 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Norway
#602
Originally Posted by lma View Post
On the PC world everyone can grab exactly the same version of Windows (or Ubuntu, whatever) and slap it on devices
Do you see Canonical or Microsoft producing hardware (successfully)? I don't. They produce software for OEMs to install. Jolla is seemingly intending on being both a software company and an OEM. And that's why OEMs don't need to differentiate on "task switchers" - they don't work on them at all, for the most part. They take software that someone else has written, put it on their own hardware, optionally with some of what they consider "value added extras" (mostly crapware), and sell it off.

But you're quite correct that it would be great to have a collaborative environment where everyone is working on the same great stuff, but reality says that probably won't happen. Why should another OEM pay for software people, when they can take what (say) Jolla produce, slap it on the same hardware, and sell it cheaper - or offer other services, better support/warranty conditions etc - due to a lower cost as a result of not having to pay those software people?

Having licence (or branding) conditions that *force* that collaboration is more or less precisely what I'm talking about: offer it CC-BY-NC for everyone in the hobbyist market to do what they like with, throw it on random pieces of hardware, do cool stuff. Let companies talk together, make a licensing deal that says they either pay for the right to use it, or contribute efforts.

From the limited information I know about the situation in Android-land, this isn't entirely different from having to get certified, and not being able to use the market/other Google apps if you don't.
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mariusmssj is offline mariusmssj
2012-07-14 , 19:44
Posts: 951 | Thanked: 2,344 times | Joined on Jan 2012 @ UK
#603
Originally Posted by lma View Post
Why not? I'm probably weird, but I would like to see vendors trying to "differentiate" and compete less on the task switcher or having the absolute lowest price and more on areas that matter like hardware specs and features, build quality, after-sales support, and yes, openness and collaboration.

On the PC world everyone can grab exactly the same version of Windows (or Ubuntu, whatever) and slap it on devices, and yet the buyers still can make perfectly rational and intelligent choices and the makers of the cheapest models aren't the market leaders. Why are "mobile" customers automatically treated like idiots?
How many of the Android or iPhone users know what CPU their running? or GPU? majority i would guess 80% won't have a clue as all they want is a phone or a phone they bought because of hype.

There is obviously many ways you can tackle this, people who will buy Jolla's phone will most likely be tech savvy
 
mikecomputing is offline mikecomputing
2012-07-14 , 20:00
Posts: 3,464 | Thanked: 5,107 times | Joined on Feb 2010 @ Gothenburg in Sweden
#604
Originally Posted by lma View Post
Why not? I'm probably weird, but I would like to see vendors trying to "differentiate" and compete less on the task switcher or having the absolute lowest price and more on areas that matter like hardware specs and features, build quality, after-sales support, and yes, openness and collaboration.

On the PC world everyone can grab exactly the same version of Windows (or Ubuntu, whatever) and slap it on devices, and yet the buyers still can make perfectly rational and intelligent choices and the makers of the cheapest models aren't the market leaders. Why are "mobile" customers automatically treated like idiots?
Really can they? There is only one company on the PC market and they feed the HW manufactors to use theyr OS. Its all about money. Actually where treated as idiots on the PC markets too.

A small company like Jolla has only slighest chance to compete on the market if they make it "as open as possible" but still make the "hard job" closed so no competitor do copy theyr work and make it new HW for half of the price.

We have to accept that stuff is not fully open. But what I think they can do for the community is:
  • fix stuff that the community expect to be integrated in the closed componets.
  • listen when people ask for bugs to get fixed in closed drivers etc...
  • They can also make alot more API semipublic via dbus calls/events.

    Example is the camera on N9. Where I want an public API to take a photo instead of tweak my cambutton app to "fake a button press".
Last edited by mikecomputing; 2012-07-14 at 20:14.
 
m4r0v3r is offline m4r0v3r
2012-07-14 , 20:20
Posts: 1,746 | Thanked: 1,832 times | Joined on Dec 2010
#605
Originally Posted by mikecomputing View Post
And what on earth is the point apps eating battery in the background if not neaded? Second did i say we should go android way?

I think you misunderstand my point. What I am saying is, if you port apps from pc to battery/embedded devices you have too think twice how you implement your code and avoid to eat Cpu when not needed. If you do strace on every pc apps today you see them poll alot in the background alot of communication with dbus/x11 and so on. I dont know if this is a problem. But just giving some an example. Thing is devs have to Think more about such stuff when we port apps from linux on desktop. But still I agree they shall not break compability with pc linux as they have done with android but I dont think that will happen anyway
i agree am all for optimised applications, i pretty much dont want the multitasking comprimised. From what ive used in the nemo mobile edition everything seems to be decent, battery life and all
 
m4r0v3r is offline m4r0v3r
2012-07-14 , 20:22
Posts: 1,746 | Thanked: 1,832 times | Joined on Dec 2010
#606
Originally Posted by mariusmssj View Post
How many of the Android or iPhone users know what CPU their running? or GPU? majority i would guess 80% won't have a clue as all they want is a phone or a phone they bought because of hype.

There is obviously many ways you can tackle this, people who will buy Jolla's phone will most likely be tech savvy

the 80% get it because it simply works, they dont care what the cpu or gpu is doing and may even give a blank expression when you ask them about the gpu
 
zimon is offline zimon
2012-07-14 , 20:53
Posts: 1,341 | Thanked: 708 times | Joined on Feb 2010
#607
Android developers (and apps) already know, if they want to run in the backgroud, they need to implement a service thread. Multitasking works fine where it is needed.

If when porting desktop applications to Android (or to Tizen, JollaMeego), and if it would support for example Qt/C++, multitasking, the OS could by default forbid running on the background. There could be a special dbus-command to system dbus, which would enable application to run also in a background. Also there could be then development option to allow all permissive background processing for all non-android apps.

If a developer porting a desktop application would support that dbus-command, (s)he should follow some guidelines which are good to have if an app is running on a mobile device in a background. Lazy developers would not use this dbus-trick especially when porting, but yet it then wouldn't mind the normal user which do not allow all permissive background processing.
 
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volt is offline volt
2012-07-14 , 21:12
Posts: 1,309 | Thanked: 1,187 times | Joined on Nov 2008
#608
Give me root access, a terminal, full multitasking and a handful of expert users that compile stuff to it. Then I can run things like Pidgin and not have it swapped out after five minutes like everything on my Galaxy Tab. Give me better contact/IM integration than Android, which the N900 already had. Those things alone will be a powertool. Add stuff like excellent DLNA support, and I'll never regret not having Google Market/Play. Top it off with the ability to hook up a DVD as a share, and play my legally bought movies unripped like I can on an Ubuntu laptop, and I can't think of more to ask for.

Oh well, I bet Flash is always going to be an issue.
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bunanson is offline bunanson
2012-07-15 , 01:42
Posts: 4,030 | Thanked: 1,633 times | Joined on Jul 2007 @ nd usa
#609
16 pages of ???, with reggie and all Rock n Roll stars posting... I do not see any plan.

Would it be nice to strike a relationship with them and see whether we can get a little more favorible treatment than just the general public, like, 5-steps plan (anybody remember that from Nokia?), product pre-release, early adopter plan, or even beta test? WHERE IS OUR COUNCIL? Should we wake them up and ...

BTW, if the council is going to hold any meeting or formulate some plan sort of... please start a thread with a purpose title (I for one will not browse through 16 pages X 40 posts/page ,ie, 600+), so that everybody can get excited about.

bun
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lma is offline lma
2012-07-15 , 01:42
Posts: 2,802 | Thanked: 4,491 times | Joined on Nov 2007
#610
Originally Posted by w00t View Post
Do you see Canonical or Microsoft producing hardware (successfully)? I don't. They produce software for OEMs to install.
So does Mer ;-)

Jolla is seemingly intending on being both a software company and an OEM. And that's why OEMs don't need to differentiate on "task switchers" - they don't work on them at all, for the most part. They take software that someone else has written, put it on their own hardware, optionally with some of what they consider "value added extras" (mostly crapware), and sell it off.
That's kind of the point, the software is a commodity. Even on the mobile side, Android made it happen (and MeeGo might've as well under better conditions). The source of osso-backup (to pick a recent example) isn't a valuable trade secret and treating it as such just gets in the way.

Why should another OEM pay for software people, when they can take what (say) Jolla produce, slap it on the same hardware, and sell it cheaper - or offer other services, better support/warranty conditions etc - due to a lower cost as a result of not having to pay those software people?
Having those software people gives certain advantages, such as reputation, being able to support the software better, having advance knowledge and perhaps even influence on development roadmaps, etc. RedHat is doing better than ever despite their bits being also available from Oracle or CentOS.

Let companies talk together, make a licensing deal that says they either pay for the right to use it, or contribute efforts.
Essentially that's what the various Qt licencing options offer :-)

Originally Posted by mikecomputing View Post
Actually where treated as idiots on the PC markets too.
Not my experience. I can go out today and chose a PC from literally hundreds of vendors, in all sorts of form factors, with all sorts of specs, peripherals etc (some even tailor-made), and run whichever OS I want on it.

People usually argued that on "embedded" hardware that's not possible, but in a time when almost all HW is ARM and almost every OSs is Linux is that still the case? Why can't I buy a device that can run Android, and MeeGo, and Tizen, etc if the hardware adaptation is for the most part common?
 
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