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2013-07-27
, 01:52
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Posts: 35 |
Thanked: 33 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
@ North America
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#182
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diogotrc, if Canonical can focus efforts and get me new choice in mobiles that works better then lipstick on Nemo then I'll be pleased.
maybe having new mobiles out there will even provide more incentive to build better UX on top of Nemo/non-ubuntu alternative stacks.
maybe having new mobiles out there will even provide more incentive to build better UX on top of Nemo/non-ubuntu alternative stacks.
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2013-07-27
, 06:34
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Posts: 7,075 |
Thanked: 9,073 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ Moon! It's not the East or the West side... it's the Dark Side
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#183
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This campaign slowing down but it's very EPIC and hope to see more of this campaigns in the future.That's one small step for a man, a giant leap for mankind.
"All this is history in the making really, I hope it paves the way to an brave new open world. Right now, everything is driven by whats good for “the company” rather than whats good for all of us as a whole. Canonical, with Edge is taking a small step towards that I think. We are lucky, this is not contending with the likes of petroleum companies… in which case it would never have been allowed to even leave the runway…"
Last edited by Dave999; 2013-07-27 at 06:38.
"All this is history in the making really, I hope it paves the way to an brave new open world. Right now, everything is driven by whats good for “the company” rather than whats good for all of us as a whole. Canonical, with Edge is taking a small step towards that I think. We are lucky, this is not contending with the likes of petroleum companies… in which case it would never have been allowed to even leave the runway…"
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Do something for the climate today! Anything!
I don't trust poeple without a Nokia n900...
Do something for the climate today! Anything!
I don't trust poeple without a Nokia n900...
Last edited by Dave999; 2013-07-27 at 06:38.
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2013-07-27
, 09:53
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Posts: 150 |
Thanked: 91 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Norway
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#184
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I got for 1 of those too.
Hope it get funded.
So much nice stuff put into a phonecase, and the possibility to run android make it possible to use it for work.
Hope it get funded.
So much nice stuff put into a phonecase, and the possibility to run android make it possible to use it for work.
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2013-07-27
, 10:27
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Posts: 3,464 |
Thanked: 5,107 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
@ Gothenburg in Sweden
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#185
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Originally Posted by railroadmaster
Nokia has NOTHING to do with Canonical and is totally irrelevant in this discussion.
To those criticizing Canonical for openness may I remind you that Nokia's user interfaces and other components for Maemo/Meego are closed source and encumbered with patents. Canonical has done no such with either Ubuntu desktop or touch.
The point is people are blindfooled if they beleive Canonical has no bussines motive going the MiR route instead of Wayland. Again MiR will hurt other dist overall. Trying to dictate the community to go theyr MiR route is always bad way. Let me remind you that going from X11 to a new server architecture is a big step forward and in that case the community should be involved and not only the biggest player shall dictate the direction.
Wayland is a freedesktop.org project and is accepted in the community way more than Canonicals MiR. Only exception is endusers who does not care. They only buy the marketing campaigns and does not have a clue what they install on they'r computer. Its has been shown before with Goolge, Apple, Faceshit and so on
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Last edited by mikecomputing; 2013-07-27 at 10:44.
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2013-07-27
, 10:36
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Posts: 3,464 |
Thanked: 5,107 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
@ Gothenburg in Sweden
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#186
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Originally Posted by dr_frost_dk
Yes, and why does X/Y hardware only work on Canonical? Could it be because some drivers are closed source? Could it be because Canonical not always contribute back the patches upstream?
i always wonder why the hell there is so much arguing and mudslinging from the corners of linux?
Yes i use Ubuntu 12.04 - Mate Desktop (my remastered version) because it works, i have tried many others but kept coming back to ubuntu because most HW and sorts worked out of the box.
I can see the arguments about the PURE linux open source and such but come on guys, this is just one more thing besides steam that helps get more users over to linux, and some will branch out to explore the linux world and may level up to purest status.
Just in the last 2-3 years things have really accelerated in my view with Steam, R PI, more HW/driver support.
This campaign for the Edge will also give MASSIVE publicity towards the linux world.
And in >= 2014, Could it be because Ubuntu going they'r own route with MiR instead of Wayland? Again it may hurt other dist because X/Y company will only support MiR and the other dists stands alone
Remember apps thjats runs on Wayland will not run on MiR and viseversa. Mainly because they use differenbt protocols. This means you in worst case developers has to provide 2 different versions of the same app even if the app is compiled using Qt or Gtk framework. == Linux fragmentation (thank you Canonical
Now thats why we are kinda upset! This is different from the "wars" between KDE and Gnome, Enlightenment, Unity etc. Thats just different choices so not something that hurts the community in the end.... People are different prefer different UI so nothing wrong with that.
But the decision with MiR is yet another reason(of many) I dislike the way Canonical has started behave latelly. And yes I still is one of those using ubuntu based dist (kubuntu but atleast kubuntu will use Wayland cause thats what KDE has decided to go so I guess it really is time kubuntu rename the dist to something better) .
Btw. to clarify I see nothing wrong with going forward with a new server architecture, X11 is broken on todays HW. But in even worser case, because of this ridicilous fragmentation, it may endthat no developers will bother to provide Mir/Wayland "builds" and we are back in the same hell as today. means X11 apps in top of XWayland or XMir and it make both loose just because stupid decision made by Canonical.
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Last edited by mikecomputing; 2013-07-27 at 11:07.
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2013-07-27
, 12:27
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Posts: 468 |
Thanked: 610 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
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#187
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Originally Posted by railroadmaster
Comparing the "openness" of Nokia and Canonical based on the developed UI isn't really fair. Both did/do very different development work to bring you Linux powered phones.
To those criticizing Canonical for openness may I remind you that Nokia's user interfaces and other components for Maemo/Meego are closed source and encumbered with patents. Canonical has done no such with either Ubuntu desktop or touch.
The software on Ubuntu Edge will include a lot of software/libraries that were developed using money from Nokia.
While the upper most UI in Maemo and MeeGo was not open-source, most of the components that created them were, and were developed by Nokia when it owned Qt.
Nokia spend millions on the development of Qt, QML and the Qt Creator IDE for example, making these suitable for mobile devices.
Canonical, Blackberry and Jolla all use QML and Qt Creator in some of "their" SDK's.
Comparing contributions to the Linux kernel also isn't a good way to compare the "openness". Nokia did a lot of hardware level development, so naturally they contributed more to the kernel.
Other components are also important. Nokia also contributed to WebKit as another example.
But the other way round is also true. Nokia also used Ubuntu Desktop a lot. It was the recommended OS for development of Maemo and MeeGo-Harmattan applications. And probably used it internally a lot too. All thanks to the "openness" of the Ubuntu desktop OS.
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2013-07-27
, 14:45
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Posts: 35 |
Thanked: 33 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
@ North America
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#188
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Originally Posted by mikecomputing
mikecomputing, that does not make sense. The entire point of using a toolkit such as GTK is so the application does not need to concern itself with the specifics of the display server.
Remember apps thjats runs on Wayland will not run on MiR and viseversa. Mainly because they use differenbt protocols. This means you in worst case developers has to provide 2 different versions of the same app even if the app is compiled using Qt or Gtk framework. == Linux fragmentation (thank you Canonical
i mean, Qt apps run on native win32 for freaks sake. If the binary format matches and no extreme UI weirdness has been done it should even be possible to just link against qt5 build for wayland vs link against qt5 built for Mir on a different system.
The current problems with 'porting' apps between X and wayland has more to do with the unfinished state of the wayland ecosystem, and how much x11-specific functionality crept into gtk+ and others
mrsellout pointing out the benefits of a robust GPLvn community without the interference of a Contributor agreement was a stronger point that above FUD.
Honestly X11 isnt even functionally broken on mobile hardware or desktop, I cannot think of even one single instance as a user in the last 8 years where I was like "OH GOD, not this silly X11 problem AGAIN!"
It's entirely developers (toolkit, driver, and X devs really) who are just tired of the non-stop hoop jumping required to work around the obsolete 1980's paradigm.
(although I have been using xpra for a while now, when needing single-window remote apps - so that may be part of it)
Last edited by bjv; 2013-07-27 at 14:47.
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2013-07-27
, 15:07
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Posts: 359 |
Thanked: 322 times |
Joined on Jun 2010
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#189
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I ordered the Ubuntu Edge because it stands for the proposition of promising the very best device that technology can produce at a price I can afford. Not "just enough." Not weakened. Not under achieving potential.
I love my N9 and N900, and I feel like Nokia innovated well with both, especially the swipe-driven N9. Two of my central problems with Nokia are: (1) they under spec'd their flagships and (2) they poorly supported their devices.
As for (1), the Ubuntu Edge is a spec giant. As for (2), Canonical promises a support program that, if delivered upon, would be totally awesome. Software upgrades every month are a great idea and more of what the modders and ROM flashers are accustomed to, but Canonical's twist of making it officially supported while not limiting development communities or other efforts is a nice touch.
The intense competition in Android has helped a lot with (1) and (2). No such thing as an underspec'd flagship, just witness the HTC One, XperiaZ, GS4, etc. Fabulous devices. And, as for (2), it would be suicide for a company not to support its flagship devices, though some tempt fate.
I love my N9 and N900, and I feel like Nokia innovated well with both, especially the swipe-driven N9. Two of my central problems with Nokia are: (1) they under spec'd their flagships and (2) they poorly supported their devices.
As for (1), the Ubuntu Edge is a spec giant. As for (2), Canonical promises a support program that, if delivered upon, would be totally awesome. Software upgrades every month are a great idea and more of what the modders and ROM flashers are accustomed to, but Canonical's twist of making it officially supported while not limiting development communities or other efforts is a nice touch.
The intense competition in Android has helped a lot with (1) and (2). No such thing as an underspec'd flagship, just witness the HTC One, XperiaZ, GS4, etc. Fabulous devices. And, as for (2), it would be suicide for a company not to support its flagship devices, though some tempt fate.
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2013-07-27
, 20:23
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Posts: 3,464 |
Thanked: 5,107 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
@ Gothenburg in Sweden
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#190
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Originally Posted by bjv
Facts stands the core X11 is different protocol than Mir and Mir is different from both Wayland and X11 this means you have to link upto three binarys version of your app because AFAIK you still need to tell you apps what library dependies you use. Even if you app ITSELF does not access X/Y/Z server API.
mikecomputing, that does not make sense. The entire point of using a toolkit such as GTK is so the application does not need to concern itself with the specifics of the display server.
i mean, Qt apps run on native win32 for freaks sake. If the binary format matches and no extreme UI weirdness has been done it should even be possible to just link against qt5 build for wayland vs link against qt5 built for Mir on a different system.
The current problems with 'porting' apps between X and wayland has more to do with the unfinished state of the wayland ecosystem, and how much x11-specific functionality crept into gtk+ and others
because X11 is old they have to provide support for that some years more but now devs has to have two more NEW binarys instead of one new.
One for X11 one for wayland one for MiR.
Second if it was that easy to provide both Wayland and MiR , why has KDE decide to only go wayland route?
You also forget the facts that some apps are closed source and even if we don't like those apps many endusers want them, such as Skype to give one example. Just tell me why those commercial companys would bother to have upto thre different binarys when it already today only support ubuntu in manyu cases. Today you can atleast unpack the deb file and run it on another dist in X11. Tomorrow you cant because it will only work if you have MiR installed.
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Last edited by mikecomputing; 2013-07-27 at 20:30.
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In some ways feeling like Canonical uses their userbase/weight to "force" people to agree to favorable copyright waivers gets my goat
... but, it also speaks to how just how deeply Unity & Mir are "This is Our Project, Go Make Your Own"
which is not really bad, or good. just Different
counterpoints, though:
1) Canonical has been around for 9 years, and their operations do not focus on a single, specialized codebase. Caution would be easier to justify if Canonical was a fly-by-night operation that buys out someone else's GPL codebase with a strong potential to dive underwater/take it closed source to make a quick buck. Otherwise it really does quack like they simply dont want to close any doors that could otherwise be open to their tools.
2) if Canonical did dive underwater with Bazaar or something (And anyone actually truly cared about leverging bzr/Mir/Unity for their own non-ubuntu stuff) Dont you think everyone would simply pull an X.Org, fork off the last good GPLv3 release and begin "contributing" to their own fork? (really, the Only fork - since Canonical's version is now relicensed and changes no longer published publically)
i do agree overall that GPLvn with no BS "agreements" more complex than kernel.org "origin" statement is generally better for all of humanity.
Let the sheer volume of your contribution to the project provide you with the weight to do what you want with it... if you want to relicense it dont accept public contributions or be prepared to re-write a lot of SVN commits. No need to make things easy for the lawyers to Weasel away with