It is my understanding that persons who are not EU citizens are not eligible to hold leadership positions within a German e.V.

If that is indeed true then that is a concern for me, since there are many community contributors who live outside the EU. There needs to be some mechanism in place to ensure that non-EU members of the community who are motivated to take on public community leadership roles have the opportunity to do so in a meaningful way.

That has to be cleared, if it indeed is true. Good point.
I will try to find out what the exact legal text on this subject is.

What other responsibilities did Council hold? The only thing that comes to mind was the distribution of "gifts" from Nokia, often in a way that promoted their products. (Eg: Coding competitions, upping their app count and the like.) Can you name another thing Council has actually done in it's past? Relating to anything said below?


A falsehood you repeat regularly, implying that because some part of it is FOSS, it's all "free". Read the EULA that shipped with your Nokia device. There are some FOSS components, but Maemo in and of itself is NOT FOSS. This is one reason, for example, one can not distribute the NOKIA device images. (More on this below.)

Then your memory is failing. Nokia dictated things all the time. How many times were we told to remove content, or disable items because Nokia disliked it or feared it would cause legal issues for them. How many times were we asked to do things by Nokia, that were never part of Council's normal activities (like judging for community awards). Did you think that was Council's idea? It wasn't. It was Nokias idea. (Quim's actually...)


Again, false. I know, because I was one of the 3 that broached this topic with Nokia, being Council at the time. Nokia explicitly refused to work with Council since it was not a legal entity. Only when we showed full proof that the paperwork had been filed for HiFo were negotiations started. Maemo servers were explicitly NOT transferred until AFTER HiFo came into full legal being, because Nokia explicitly required we have the container corporation setup before that happened. Again, I know, being one of the founders of the corporation. I have the legal documentation to prove that, as does the rest of the Board. (All Board have a digital copy of all documents relating to HiFo, while Andrew holds most of the physical copies.)

Until HiFo existed, X-Fade and those at Nemien were still fully in charge of the hardware and the systems, and were instructed to prepare them for us. They may have given partial access to some members to log in to work on items (I had CVS access to some of the core elements, for example, to work on the voting system long before a lot of this started.) But they were not to hand over the keys until HiFo existed.

So again, your view and your perspective are understandable. But they are NOT FACTUALLY ACCURATE.


Really? We picked and hired the folks at Nemien? I'm doubtful any member of Council (who was not also a Nokia employee) had any say in anyone being hired. Can you name one person hired on Council's say-so? Just one? I can't.

Council had little say in changes to the systems before the transfer. Everything was routed through Nemien, and we had no say in who was working on what, as we were not paying the bills, Nokia was.

Face facts: Council, the whole concept, came about because a groups of people here petitioned Nokia to give the community a voice. Nokia mainly got tired of us making noise, and said that most parents say to a 5 year old: "Fine, here's some candy, now go play." And then told Nemien: "Watch your little brother and entertain him, and we'll give you some money for it."

That was the "relationship" we had. The community never had say in who was hired at Nemien, or when/what devices we got for competitions. Both Nokia and Nemien humored us when it fit their purposes, and allowed us to work on things occasionally (for free) that made their jobs easier.

We had zero influence with Nokia itself. When Nokia was going to shut the lights off, the ONLY reason we even had the option to keep them on was because of one single person in Nokia: Quim.

Quim alone got Nokia to agree to talks about transferring assets "to the community", which the legal department immediately rejected. Only when we agreed to form a legal entity did they begrudgingly agree to consider the process. When Quim left, the deal nearly fell apart. Nokia stopped responding, and contacts inside the company started to vanish. Quim called in a few personal favors to kick-start the process again, and even then it took until near the very end of Microsoft purchasing them to get everything signed and resolved.

If you think or "remember" otherwise, that's great, but it's not reality. Just like that 5 year old was never actually "in control" of his brother or parents. I know. I was there. I was Council. I was a founder of HiFo, and I was on the Board. It was Me, Rob, and Ivan, and all three of our names are on the legal document founding HiFo. During that period you spent most of your time on IRC, and missed/avoided most of the discussions on TMO and around HiFos creation.

Your understanding of "public domain" is lacking. Midgard is "Free Software" according to their wiki & web page, and is actually covered under LGPL. This means that companies can used it in commercial products, and are not required to divulge their additions. You may notice the line, right on the wiki page linked above, stating directly:

So, in short: YOU ARE LEGALLY WRONG ON THIS MATTER.

Nokia did hold, and had full rights to, the site, scripts, configuration, and "softwares" that composed m.o. They also contractually extended those rights to HiFo. Not Council, not you, not "the community", but to the legal entity that could hold those rights for the community.

Disagree? Show me ONE F_ING PIECE OF LEGAL EVIDENCE otherwise. ANYTHING to back this FALSE claim.

Really? There needs to be no legal entity? Nobody needs to own the servers or be legally liable to pay the bills? Nice world you live in, but it is not reality. A legal representative IS needed, and since the community doesn't want to trust that to one person (nor should they), a legal entity/corporation is required.


And there you have hit it on the head. It's what the community and Nokia agreed upon. This agreement wasn't between the community and a sovereign government. It was with a corporation. One which made up it's own rules, in it's own comfort zone, knowing that the liability "gap" between real world laws and their "agreement" with us would be covered by their corporate entity. THAT IS GONE NOW.

Now we need to operate in the real world. Where real people, with real names, need to submit verifiable information to be part of a legal entity. You say Council checks the legal status of every account made? Bull. It's never done that as I recall, and I doubt Nemien was doing it on our behalf. Because again, it was all under Nokia's umbrella. A play game, where real world rules didn't apply.

I see. So like when HiFo was negotiating a contract with Nokia, and the Board knew things TechStaff and Council did not? Remember that? When you raised hell as Council that the Board was agreeing to all kinds of things you made up at the time? Most bosses would fire and employee like that.

And for things that the employees do. It's called liability, and is the main reason I left the Board, when I stopped trusting a particular member of TechStaff (YOU) that was acting irrationally, and the Board could not reach a consensus on how to resolve that. I resolved it for myself by resigning.


Actually that's exactly what it is with HiFo. The language for the electorate formation was pulled directly from the Council election setup, including things like Karma and using the Midgard/garage user database as it's base electorate.

In a word, I can tell you the reason: You.

Most see you now the way you saw Rob. And they want no chance that one rouge person is going to take over or abusing the whole thing. That's exactly what happens when a group elects a "small group" that promises to be true to the community wishes.

Also, contrary to your claim about German law being less strict about things, in this point the German laws on e.V. are quite clear. There are key requirements and definitions, and a minimal structure that must be met. This is one of them. There are ways around it, to be sure, but that requires full trust of all those involved. And right now, the community isn't very trusting. Mainly because of the infighting, and people spreading lies and FUD.


Irony, since you're the one suggesting a GA of 6. Also, I don't know if you've looked lately, but even t.m.o. shows the active membership is well below 2,000 these days. I don't see that growing any time soon. That "60K" figure people throw around? That's the list of everyone who's ever signed up for an account, probably including a few thousand spam-bots, since Midgard never deletes an entry...

Nobody is raising a shitstorm against you. They're disputing your incorrect conclusions and warped sense of reality. One where we don't need a legal entity at all to operate in the world, and all of Maemo is "open source", when clearly it's not. The only time it gets personal is when people get frustrated at you screaming like a 5 year old and insisting your view is right, and the only way, and they get fed up with it.


It never was. You never held any position that would open you to liability, despite your claims otherwise. Council, while being noted in HiFo's bylaws, is a committee, which holds next to no legal liability (outside of personal culpability for intentionally doing things harmful). The closest you came to holding any liability was being a founder for the e.V., which perplexes me, since you now say you've always thought it was a bad idea.

Good Lord. Talk or don't talk. Don't pull this "I'm here, but I'm leaving, but I'm here" nonsense. Cher has had fewer "final farewell" tours.

i see option 1 like the the existing council setup and option 2 more like a steering group. with 2 you could argue that you pay to have more say, but is it going to deter those who can't contribute much time or don't have the funds to do so.

However, I'm a little concerned that when the discussion about eV has been going on as long as they have, that there are still questions raised as to the involvement of non-eu members where the answer is not known.

@woody14619

Thank You for this bery precise post, which really do sum up the situation very well.
It is, one of the most precise answers, I have seen for a very long time.

Also, thanks to Estel. We have had our fights, and it is very satisfactionary (is that a word LOL) to see how you actively participate in this discussion with also very good posts as answers.

So whats the bs of this not being the correct way, You say yourself that HiFO handed over their obligations to eV

Above is contradictionary and not consistent. 1) You say that council suggests to HiFo and in 2) yoy say that HiFo has no power over council

the GA actually is the registered members, not only a few people, every member can participate in the GA meetings and this way have their voices heard

We agreed, and you didnt comment beside in first place accepting, but later started a rattle on how this is all wrong

No, the GA is all Maemo members, so it is not a priviledged position

Exactly

Last, You state these paragraphs that I quoute is giving suggestions to how to move on. I cant find one single statement in above that is a constructive way to move forward. It is, again, only neglecting the hard work being done by eV board and council.
Slowing the progress and creating a hinderance to move forward. As you say, endagering the existance of this community by slowing down the work that is needed to continue.

There is satisfactory, but from the context I think you mean satisfying:

1. is what we did not want in the initial setup, we tried to find a way to integrate the council with the eV so nobody can complain about the general masses being left out of it - joerg complains about it anyway - so we setup 2. in a way council is voted like now by the people like now but being part of the "entity" so actually empowering it with what it legally never had with Nokia (1.)
3. was also in the cue as council could just be a workingroup within the eV that is voted on by GA - so the most active form the active members get that job - the ballots from past elections show that if the GA grows to 50+ members you probably have the same votes as from garage now... you won't get lazy people as you'd need to apply for the eV membership first. Anyone can become member if he/she meets the requirements (garage account, registered IRC account etc).
currently Councilors do not have to pay any rent... as they are not forced to become member, although I'd like to see people join the eV.

Non-EU members can join the eV at any time (this answer has been given more than 5 times iirc), only the board is limited. Let me elaborate what is current and what is possible - Board which is 3 people (currently Chair and 2 Vice) accepting applications, handling funds, do paper pushing - close to everything can be delegated to other members, even signing privileges for "on behalf of" can be given to members. If you want to, you can have the Board being a sole "premium member" position (you then call those three fancy names like President, Vice-President and alike) and a CEO (that can be really anyone) be hired to do everything (really everything) on behalf. Some things require Board signatures, always - like opening a bank account etc.

EDIT: I might did not answer the actual question correctly, you can easily have more power over the eV if you get the GA to support you (person or as group) - without becoming Board member - that is the keyhole - if you have the General Assembly on your side you can do anything (as long as legal - legal means German law + eV bylaws) you want. That is the German law on this, within legal boundaries the GA is in control of the eV, not the Board, the Board is only representatives (people signing papers). The whole idea of an eV is to have a group be a legal entity, not a single person or a board (HiFo does only consist of Board and Founders and was never meant to grow, the eV is)

I hope this shed some light on it.

PS I'd go 1. or 3. if we could do it again.

Thank you for the detailed clarification on how non-EU citizens can participate within an e.V.

It does seem as though a structure is in place to keep avenues of participation and "de-facto influence" open to all. As long as there is some codification in place that details what non-EU citizens are legally allowed to do/not allowed to do, and details on how non-EU citizens can still influence governance within the structure of an e.V, I think this should be acceptable.

hell came down on earth or what ??
i been away for a day and its a cockfight sence ?