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2015-10-27
, 00:29
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Posts: 1,986 |
Thanked: 7,698 times |
Joined on Dec 2010
@ Dayton, Ohio
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#1532
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Originally Posted by pichlo
Good question!
By your own admission, you have not seen.a Sailfish product yet.
How do you know the software is any good?
Well, honestly, I do have the SDK, and am enjoying the ability to create Qt-based code with a really slick UI with very little effort. And I can kinda see what Sailfish looks like by running the emulator (even though I still am having constant problems getting the emulator to do what I want). I have hope that I'll be able to quickly and easily get all the code I've written onto the Sailfish platform...But yeah, I haven't yet seen a physical device running Sailfish, other than in videos.
It's really getting me down. There's little enjoyment in creating code that only runs on an emulator...
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2015-10-27
, 02:46
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Posts: n/a |
Thanked: 0 times |
Joined on
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#1533
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Just goes to show the difficulties of launching a product... we're probably seeing a lot of the stuff that's usually hidden in other, less open companies.
Dunno about you, but it sorta raises my respect for them. It's still coming, some hiccups, some difficulties, but once delivered it's up to the fans/devs/owners to help build it into something that will be around later.
Wow, I actually sounded like this when the N810 was launched and I loved that device.
Dunno about you, but it sorta raises my respect for them. It's still coming, some hiccups, some difficulties, but once delivered it's up to the fans/devs/owners to help build it into something that will be around later.
Wow, I actually sounded like this when the N810 was launched and I loved that device.
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2015-10-27
, 07:20
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Posts: 285 |
Thanked: 1,900 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#1534
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Originally Posted by MartinK
IMO you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you announce targeted delivery time, it will be taken like Gods word to his people and delays will make supporters angry. If there are difficulties and you need to postpone even further you will make supporters even angrier and after that the negativity will be having it's own life that cannot be controlled with any amount of communication. Openness is not one way road, it requires something from the audience also (ie. understanding and good will), otherwise it will only result negativity. This is why I don't believe in openness-ideology anymore. And that's why Sailifish-venture will be my last take on anything community related.
That might work for a normal commercial product - in such case you should generally only announce any dates only when you are really sure you can meet them. Or post factum: "Hey, we released X!"
On the other hand - we are talking crowdfunding. For crowdfunding such behavior wont do. Anything other than frequent updates and maximal openness won't do - especially when you hit any unexpected delays. Backers will generally be quite okay even with severe delays as long as you regularly keep them up to date. And you risk making them very angry if you keep them in the dark even for small delays.
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2015-10-27
, 07:38
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Posts: 7,075 |
Thanked: 9,073 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ Moon! It's not the East or the West side... it's the Dark Side
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#1535
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Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
IMO you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you announce targeted delivery time, it will be taken like Gods word to his people and delays will make supporters angry. If there are difficulties and you need to postpone even further you will make supporters even angrier and after that the negativity will be having it's own life that cannot be controlled with any amount of communication. Openness is not one way road, it requires something from the audience also (ie. understanding and good will), otherwise it will only result negativity. This is why I don't believe in openness-ideology anymore. And that's why Sailifish-venture will be my last take on anything community related.
Don't you think we are long past that? If you don't manage to deliver it doesn't matter what you do. Where is the refund option.
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2015-10-27
, 07:49
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Posts: 285 |
Thanked: 1,900 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#1536
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Originally Posted by NokiaN9KickYourAss
No. Deliveries have already begun, though slowly and most likely because of problems with manufacturer rather than Jolla. So, they will deliver, but very late compared to what was aimed.
Don't you think we are long past that? If you don't manage to deliver it doesn't matter what you do. Where is the refund option.
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2015-10-27
, 07:58
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Posts: 6,453 |
Thanked: 20,983 times |
Joined on Sep 2012
@ UK
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#1537
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Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
You don't get it, do you. It's like the Pandora's box. Once you've opened it, the daemons have flown out and you have to keep it open so that the good spirits can follow. Open it just a little, see the daemon, then panic and shut it - and you have only the daemons out.
This is why I don't believe in openness-ideology anymore.
Openness works. So does closeness. What does not work is the hybrid that Jolla is trying to do.
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2015-10-27
, 08:14
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Posts: 285 |
Thanked: 1,900 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#1538
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I just disagree on that as I don't see it as black and white. Openness can work in certain situations but it demands a lot from all parties involved. Will, time and energy to debate and to tolerate poisonous and at times nonconstructive atmosphere is one of them. In case of Jolla, most gripes about communication relate to these two things:
- gripes because information comes out late
- gripes because information contains vague schedules
In reality you can only address one of those. You cannot give anything definite until you have that information yourself, and that may depend on information you need from another parties which may also come in late (while you alone get all the s*** for it). So, if you demand that evrything needs to be "fully open" and communicated earliest time possible, you will have to accept certain amount of vagueness an uncertainty. Well, we all know how well community tolerates such things, so only viable option would be to announce only when you have all the information to have as little vagueness as possible. But then again, there's another storm and complaints that you are not being "open." So, as I said, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't and because the situation impossible to handle in way that pleases everyone, I really cannot find any reason how such openness could ever work in projects like this.
- gripes because information comes out late
- gripes because information contains vague schedules
In reality you can only address one of those. You cannot give anything definite until you have that information yourself, and that may depend on information you need from another parties which may also come in late (while you alone get all the s*** for it). So, if you demand that evrything needs to be "fully open" and communicated earliest time possible, you will have to accept certain amount of vagueness an uncertainty. Well, we all know how well community tolerates such things, so only viable option would be to announce only when you have all the information to have as little vagueness as possible. But then again, there's another storm and complaints that you are not being "open." So, as I said, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't and because the situation impossible to handle in way that pleases everyone, I really cannot find any reason how such openness could ever work in projects like this.
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2015-10-27
, 10:35
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Posts: 6,453 |
Thanked: 20,983 times |
Joined on Sep 2012
@ UK
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#1539
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Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
Now we are talking
I just disagree on that as I don't see it as black and white.
I may have some news for you. Like gravity, global warming and gun crime, this is not a matter of opinion. It is an observable fact. Unlike individuals, masses are predictable. That is the difference between psychology and sociology. We are not talking about how people should behave. We are talking about how they do.
It's like "wish lines", the paths trodden diagonally through the grass where two paved footpaths cross at right angles. People should walk on the pavement, but they don't. You can manage one individual or even a small group and direct them around, but try managing a crowd of a few hundred. You have only two options: install a fence to force them around (the "closed" solution) or pave the diagonal path across (the "open" solution). Everything else ends up in a mess.
Openness can work in certain situations but it demands a lot from all parties involved.
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2015-10-27
, 11:39
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Posts: 285 |
Thanked: 1,900 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#1540
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Originally Posted by pichlo
Yep. And my take on that would be to abandon the openness as ideological choice as it's impossible to implement "correctly" in project that depends on external parties to quite some extent, for very reasons I mentioned in my previous post. You cannot eat an preserve the cake at the same time, as you cannot communicate early with precise schedules when you don't have such information by yourself, which means you cannot succeed in crowd where openness is defined in ideological extreme with no middle ground. We in the community are not "masses" but small group of technologically oriented people who should at least have some idea what kind of problems may be involved with projects like this. Yet, it doesn't show anywhere in our more or less poisonous communication.
Absolutely correct. Now here is the crux. You can set some expectations from parties involving one, two, or even a hundred individuals if you are skillful enough. But you cannot set expectations involving masses. You need to change your own behaviour.
Practically this means that people may say they want choice and something "different" (or "unlike"). In fact they are not ready and willing for what it takes to actually have something done in different way. This can be clearly seen in conflicting demands and extreme negativity when those conflicting wishes cannot be met. If openness in projects is like that, it will never work. Hence, it's easy to come to conclusion that it's better not to try it at all.
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Software guys do often not grasp the problems shipping hardware the first time around . . .