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2015-11-19
, 15:26
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Posts: 6,453 |
Thanked: 20,983 times |
Joined on Sep 2012
@ UK
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#132
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Originally Posted by Copernicus
That's a very good question. It reminds me of the old Radio Yerevan joke from the Communist times of economic scarcity:
Soooo... What do folks here expect to be the "next time"?
Q: "When will we have it good?"When Jolla started, I saw them as an alternative mobile phone manufacturer. That is how they presented themselves. That was their chance. It was a good chance. To build a consumer product that the customers would want to buy. Not a new iPhone. Not even a new Android. Too late for that. But Asha, Firefox, Tizen and Ubuntu are all proofs that there is market for alternatives.
A: "You already had!"
Unfortunately, they squandered the chance multiple times. Instead of making the phone pleasant to use by fixing bugs ("dirty spot"), they went off and spent 6 months porting a Qt update that introduced the OOM issues and ultimately killed the best thing there was about the phone - performance. Instead of improving the basic functionality (another "dirty spot"), they spent another twelve months if not more fiddling with the UI. The result is the controversial 2.0 that polarized the community like nothing before.
And every time you tried to point any of that out, you were immediately stamped to the ground by the crowds of JulmaHerras shouting about how negative you are and how Holly Jolla knows best and we should leave them alone.
Well, they did it their way. Now you see the result.
(Regarding opening the OS, I absolutely share your view.)
__________________
Русский военный корабль, иди нахуй!
Русский военный корабль, иди нахуй!
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2015-11-19
, 15:55
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Posts: 1,389 |
Thanked: 1,857 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
@ Israel
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#133
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Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
I would only say that do not see it as white and black. There are a lot of small companies in tech who are successful. The problem of Jolla was a priorities. They went too loud but too slow. And the shaming of community was the "wake up call" first, but they ignored.
Analyzing reasons is not "it's other's fault." If there is no demand as manufacturers don't want to risk already slim margins (as majority of them generate losses anyway) it doesn't matter if your product is good or bad anymore. Only way to succeed would be to have backing of another big corporation, which never comes without strings attached. So yes, if Jolla ends up in bankruptcy, it's their fault as that they tried to do the impossible with support from community. Lessons learned:
- you need a big partner for continued funding
- communities won't help you generate that funding
- don't even try, you will fail
- after failure you only get public shaming and ridicule even from your own community
Paid apps would maybe help to keep a lot of devs from TMO which could bring more awareness of device and more devs/customers as an example.
So again, I do not think the main problem is HW problems(after all they are SW company, or am I wrong?), but strategy, communication, promises, PR, hiding things. Simple as that.
Btw community here still keeps maemo5 running. The problem is that community is not your slave and you cannot control it, it needs mutual aims and interests. But they tried to use it where they need(fanboys with PR, port things), but on other side they did not give back a lot(you need hackers, you can't limit them to specific area and close everything around, even MS gave tshirt to first person who jailbroken WP phone. A lot of big companies going that way nowdays. But if you want to do it all by yourself, you are left alone with bunch of people who just makes PR for you)
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2015-11-19
, 15:59
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Posts: 1,986 |
Thanked: 7,698 times |
Joined on Dec 2010
@ Dayton, Ohio
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#134
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Originally Posted by pichlo
Uhm, really? Asha is dead. Tizen just looks like Samsung trying to create a Samsung OS, which doesn't really advance the cause of alternatives in my book. Firefox looks interesting, but I have to admit I don't know much about where they are going with their OS... And I don't know just what to think about Ubuntu.
But Asha, Firefox, Tizen and Ubuntu are all proofs that there is market for alternatives.
Really, I've gotta ask, _is_ there a market for alternatives?
Unfortunately, they squandered the chance multiple times. Instead of making the phone pleasant to use by fixing bugs ("dirty spot"), they went off and spent 6 months porting a Qt update that introduced the OOM issues and ultimately killed the best thing there was about the phone - performance. Instead of improving the basic functionality (another "dirty spot"), they spent another twelve months if not more fiddling with the UI. The result is the controversial 2.0 that polarized the community like nothing before.
And if gaining support from "the community" requires you to make choices that the entire community supports, I've gotta say that community support is a pipe dream, because there are no choices that the entire community supports. Every decision polarizes the community.
Well, they did it their way. Now you see the result.
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2015-11-19
, 16:02
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Posts: 285 |
Thanked: 1,900 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#135
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Originally Posted by pichlo
Um... actually I said that manufacturers are reluctant to put significant amount of funding into a platform that almost nobody has even heard about before. I also said that there are reasons for it, ie. thin margins or manufacturing business that is already not profitable even with platform that enjoys majority of market share. It's more like stating the obvious rather than finding someone to blame. Jolla did their best (and still do if the financing round is finished and story continues in some form for another year), but it takes more than just a good product to penetrate market and convince others to join. It takes resources, which Jolla has always been short of, and demand, which also doesn't seem to exist in significant numbers, and time to implement and polish everything, which in Jolla's case is also heavily dependent on continuing flow of investor money until there are enough manufacturers (like Intex) willing to place bet on Sailfish and generate income to keep Jolla afloat on income. Jolla can only do as much as their resources enable them to do and if it's not enough, only lesson to be learned is not to try again without big company backing since from the beginning instead of relying on anything community based. It can be a valuable lesson you know...
In this particular case, yes, you can say, "It's the bloody manufacturers, it's their fault, they are bloody cowards and do not want to risk anything".
Or you can say, "We have so far failed to persuade the manufactures to try our alternative, where have we made mistakes and how can we alleviate them?"
Which one is more constructive?
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2015-11-19
, 16:03
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Posts: 337 |
Thanked: 891 times |
Joined on Jul 2012
@ Royaume Uni.
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#136
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Originally Posted by Copernicus
The future is actually more bleak than that. I think people in mobile will be saying, "We've had Symbian, Windows Mobile, Windows Phone, Windows 10, Firefox OS, Blackberry 7, Meego, Blackberry 10, WebOS, Sailfish, Ubuntu, Tizen, Bada. We've had all these OS's and they've all been crushed and lost their owners billions of Dollars collectively". Instead of asking, "Do we need to be more open?", they'll probably be saying "If we get involved in another mobile OS, we're going to lose million of Dollars".
I just don't see anybody examining this experience and saying: "We need to be more open! We need to get our OS onto more devices!" That just doesn't work. It'll be the opposite -- "We need to tie our software more closely to our hardware!" I mean, Apple certainly isn't hurting by following this strategy. I'm guessing Android itself will be slowly retreating, as more manufacturers switch to OSs built totally in-house...
At this stage, it's impossible for any incumbent to come in and displace Google or Apple. Microsoft spent tens of billions of Dollars to try and promote Windows for mobiles and have gotten nowhere. Did Microsoft not try hard enough? Clearly they tried very hard. Did Microsoft spend the money necessary? Yes they did, big time. Did Microsoft try to bring developers on board? Yes, they spent a fortune on porting/community efforts. Did Microsoft find a good partner? Yes, they partnered with the best mobile phone maker out there (Nokia). Did Microsoft deliver a good OS? Yes, it's certainly no worse than Android/Ios. If Microsoft can fail with a pretty decent product and all their resources - there is no hope for smaller players.
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2015-11-19
, 16:09
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Posts: 1,986 |
Thanked: 7,698 times |
Joined on Dec 2010
@ Dayton, Ohio
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#137
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Originally Posted by ZogG
Um, no. Maemo5 is dead. The N900 was the only device that ever ran the OS, and the only device that ever will. Even the Neo900 (assuming it is ever produced) will be running a different OS; compatible with Maemo perhaps, but not the same.
Btw community here still keeps maemo5 running.
At best, you can say that the community here is performing life-support on the failing body of Maemo. But this OS is never going to make it onto any other hardware platform.
The problem is that community is not your slave and you cannot control it, it needs mutual aims and interests.
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2015-11-19
, 16:10
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Posts: 2,448 |
Thanked: 9,523 times |
Joined on Aug 2010
@ Wigan, UK
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#138
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwVNuyfhF0Q
__________________
'Men of high position are allowed, by a special act of grace, to accomodate their reasoning to the answer they need. Logic is only required in those of lesser rank.' - J K Galbraith
My website
GitHub
'Men of high position are allowed, by a special act of grace, to accomodate their reasoning to the answer they need. Logic is only required in those of lesser rank.' - J K Galbraith
My website
GitHub
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2015-11-19
, 16:17
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Posts: 285 |
Thanked: 1,900 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#139
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Originally Posted by ZogG
Problem of Jolla was that they tried to compete in already filled and highly competitive market against manufacturers that for some reason have been willing to dump products into market at loss and against OS's that have been developed for far longer and that have far more resources and power behind them. Small tech companies are usually competitive in only small niches, which obviously doesn't exist in mobile devices.
I would only say that do not see it as white and black. There are a lot of small companies in tech who are successful. The problem of Jolla was a priorities.
Btw community here still keeps maemo5 running.
The problem is that community is not your slave and you cannot control it, it needs mutual aims and interests.
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2015-11-19
, 16:19
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Posts: 435 |
Thanked: 1,599 times |
Joined on Dec 2010
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#140
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Originally Posted by marxian
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CNOutomr5XI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwVNuyfhF0Q
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Option 2 is as long an option as that hardware partner believes in open software and wants to release phones and not TVs. (I think it's a quite unrealistic option otherwise there would have been a manufacturer in the past who'd bought Jolla)