Don't hope, make it happen. Nobody but you is empowered to do so.

Some other points not related to fragmentation:

* This approach requires that the user has red pill mode switched on, since big part of the software is relying on other libs or is in wrong category. That's not good at all.
* There should be a direct link to the file, since some use wget to get the file after it fails to other reasons.
* There should be a way to upload the modified source.

Wow, GA beated me at commenting here about that post.

Some hints to focus this discussion:

- This is about http://maemo.org/downloads being an original source for promoting software available or having multiple and eventually competing original sources like ITT software section in the way it is designed now. Why competing with maemo.org as original source. Why going for duplication instead of syndication.

- Creating a page for your app in maemo downloads (developed anywhere with packages hosted anywhere) takes what, 10 minutes? No signing whatever, it's a web form with a button to upload a screenshot. Update the info with a new release even less. Why a developer serious about his work wouldn't spend this extra time? Specially why not when doing this once the info would propagate top whoever wants to pick it up?

- This is not about Garage, take that word out of the discussion. You can manage your software anywhere. We don't want developers pointing users to Garage, period.

- This is not even about extras / extras-devel repositories since you can publish your software anywhere. Nokia will take more seriously the software available in extras as developers themselves take more seriously the fact of having the good and stable software available in extras. But this has nothing to do with this discussion.

I could comment more but it's either at http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//ma...ay/017783.html or in this thread. It's a bit of a pity that we didn't have this discussion before Reggie (with his best intentions, I have no doubt about this!) invested his time on this.

Now I see this [DISCONTINUED]. Hey Reggie, let's keep talking. Your idea is fundamentally good, very good. And there are ways to implement it that would make life easier/funnier for users and developers, while making ITT and maemo.org better.

There is you and the core ITT fans, there is the group of maemo developers serious about their work, and there is the maemo.org team, funded by Nokia but 100% community driven. Plus Nokia's support to make it happen, whatever is good for all of you. All the elements are in place for restarting the discussion and proceeding with good multilateral planning and execution.

Yes, quite.

I did mean to imply that the system should be shut down entirely, only that a greater integration with maemo.org and Downloads/Garage should be sought to avoid fragmentation and prevent duplication of effort.

Leveraging the power of itT to help drive good software development is a fantastic idea, but this particular implementation was lacking, if only in its fragmentary nature.

There's a dead easy way to fix this (well, the technical side might get a little involved, but it's fairly straightforward otherwise), and that's integrating with maemo.org through some sort of syndication. Don't duplicate the effort and resources that have already been put into project hosting and tracking with Downloads and Garage, utilize them! Drop the hosting/tracking part of the itTSS system, replace it with maemo.org's system and keep the discussions. You end up with effectively the same system, but without the extra effort on the part of developers to keep things in sync.

For example, a Garage project (that has enabled itTSS integration—this may be something that should be optional, but details can be pounded out later) releases a new version over on Garage itTSS picks up the release and creates a thread (complete with release notes, a .install and a link back to the project page). Then users on itT will see it, download it and report bugs, criticisms, and kudos. Easy peasy.

Just noticed the DISCOUNTINUED too and I want to throw in my 2c as well.
As you probably know I am the Xournal port maintainer/developer.
I did create a Maemo Downloads page because I know that is the place where the stable software should be and is the place that people (should) search when looking for software.
With my first port I did put up my own repository on my desktop machine in the lab.
I did that because I knew that my patches were hacks to make it work and because I did know if Xournal would have been appreciated by the users.
When I noticed people liked it, and gave me feedback, I started working harder on it and cleaned up the hacks to made them patches and to be in sync with the upstream version.

Anyway, in both cases I did create an ITT thread.
I did that because there was (and, IMHO, there is) no other place where I can listen for feedback.
Comments on the Maemo Downloads section are not enough (and probably even useless) and, as Quim stated, the Garage forums should be used by the developers rather than from the end users.
And, in fact, I am going to create a Garage project for Xournal, but I am going to make it not for the end users, but for me (to have a place where all the Xournal stuff is properly kept) and for whoever wants to help in developing for it.

To summarize, what I miss (as a developer) is a place where I can talk with my users.
The ITT forum is the best place for that, and we all agree with it.

What Quim stated is, as always, correct: the best solution, in my eyes, would be to automatically (if the developer wishes so) create threads in the ITT forums when a new version of the application is being uploaded to Maemo Downloads and have a link to it on the final page.

So that we have, in one page, the Xournal page on Maemo Downloads:

a) a description of the application
b) a way to .install it
c) a way to discuss it -> ITT thread

(just re-read what GA wrote, it's the very same have I wrote here.. , sorry for duplicating it)

I would like to turn this discussion around and look at it from the perspective of the end-users. When I say end-users, I mean the majority -- consumers with zero to average knowledge of linux, packages, debs, repositories, and Maemo. Let's face it, much of what we have now are just too confusing for them. A lot of them won't install apps and a lot of them will not go as far to know what Maemo is.

I would have wanted a system to make it easy for them. I would have wanted a system that they can use and have them upload desktop backgrounds, themes, maybe submit their own NumptyPhysics levels. I want it to be fun for them by letting them be a part of the system -- able to upload, discuss, and talk directly to the developers.

Instead, what we have is a slow, hard to get to, developer-centric system with an identity crisis. What's more, it has no direct connection to Tableteer, and provides a messy link to Application Manager.

I created a system that I can control and integrate more. It was not much but I had the best intentions to help the end-users and ultimately love their tablets. It was shot down before it can even take off.

I don't think no one in Maemo.org (those who run it) shares my vision. Sure, they want to improve some things but up to what level? Is it up to the end-user level?

Syndication is easy but I think is the wrong solution. All it does is make the developers' life easier but does really nothing for the end-users.

we need to make this more of a mainstream device...which its not right now its seen as a well i dont know....i dont see joe 6 pack with, it heck i dont know if i really want it the gorram thing make me feel like i don't know what im doing...and when i ask how do i...well lets not go there...we need a better and easier area for newbies and novices to explore and learn there devices foibles

There's a difference between backgrounds and NumptyPhysics levels and application software. If you want to provide a hosting solution for the former, that's fine - it's as both an application developer and an end-user many of us object to the latter.

1) As an end-user I want to go to one place to look for software and see everything which is suitable for me (and that one place is the Application Manager, or - failing that - downloads.maemo.org)

2) As a developer, I want to announce releases of my product in one place, without having to copy & paste the same announcement to half a dozen different places.

I think that's disingenous. Sure, there are software developers who don't care about their users that much (buggy, half-Hildonised software, not put in extras(-devel) etc.), but there are others who do care about the end-user experience. Removing whatever perceived barriers are in-place to the former group requires co-ordination and discussion, though.

That's the thing, look at it from the end-user's point of view. They are the same, and they should be in the same place.

I have to clarify that I'm when I say Maemo.org, it's the folks who run it, not the developers. I've edited my post.