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2008-06-13
, 22:27
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Posts: 1,436 |
Thanked: 3,144 times |
Joined on Jul 2005
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#32
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Here's a great read, and I agree on the approach:
http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2008/06/...o-communicate/
http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2008/06/...o-communicate/
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Reggie Suplido
Reggie Suplido
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2008-06-13
, 22:53
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Posts: 4,708 |
Thanked: 4,649 times |
Joined on Oct 2007
@ Bulgaria
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#33
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A great read indeed and very true on both sides, although i can't quite understand how everyone out there seems to mistaken his name...
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Technically, there are three determinate states the cat could be in: Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Technically, there are three determinate states the cat could be in: Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
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2008-06-14
, 05:06
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#34
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Originally Posted by qgil
Arg, Quim... you stole my next argument.
But at the end what counts are Nokia's actions. How many companies are shipping commercial devices with a higher percentage of and endorsement to open source? How many companies are making a higher open source contribution through new and patched code and direct support to OSS projects and specialized companies? How many companies in the league of Nokia are willing to discuss publicly with the open source community about potential futures of expansion to mass markets?
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Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2008-06-14
, 05:12
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#35
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Originally Posted by mwiktowy
But-- that perception is created by willfully glossing over the entirety, and cherry-picking sound bites that (appear to) reinforce OSS religious paranoia! It's self-fulfilling.
It the perception that this as a desire by Nokia to slow down that progress towards OSS nirvana so that the OSS community can meet Nokia half-way so that the existing industry doesn't have to change. That is unpalatable to some (most?) OSS advocates and you can expect them to pull that old-and-comfy-business-model-donkey forward fairly forcefully using whatever tools they have at their disposal (rants, threats to buy elsewhere, etc.).
Again: has Nokia been moving toward increased openness, or away?
As complex as the issue itself can be, the answer is simple and obvious.
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2008-06-14
, 07:22
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Posts: 477 |
Thanked: 118 times |
Joined on Dec 2005
@ Munich, Germany
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#36
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I should say that I was also negatively surprised by Dr Jaaski comments. I should also say that I am somewhat uncomfortable with Nokia's ambivalence: clearly, they do great things for open source but they also come from a closed source culture and that shows.
Maybe we should see this from the business point of view. When I hear about the "cell phone industry needing DRM and locked parts" I suppose that Dr Jaaski is thinking about the demands of carriers and the fact that most end users buy subsidized phones with what is basically "pay by lock-in". For this business model, the phone needs DRM and locks so that the customer can be forced to keep paying for the contracts and has no choice where to buy his software (music, games, ringtones, etc...). It is a business model invented by Gillette a century ago: give the razor for free, and make profits on the blades.
This is a good model for the industry, because it ensures a more regular cash-flow (regular payments instead of a one-time buy), and usually brings more revenues, since the total price is hidden (more than one young people ended up broke from their cell phone bill).
But is this the only possible business model? Certainly not. There is a sizeable portion of the market which prefers unlocked phones, and are prepared to pay the upfront costs. And those are the people who bought the tablets, which did not sell so bad at all. Interestingly, most proponents of the open source model are like that, so the reactions to the DRM and locks comments are not surprising.
In the end, it is down to the customers. Many customers prefer subsidized phones, and are prepared to live with locks. That is one side of the market. But Nokia should not forget about the other side of the market: people who want open devices, and are prepared to pay the costs upfront. That market is small, but it cannot be that small. And it is underserved by the industry, so there must be a business opportunity to take.
The challenge will be to keep the upfront price low enough, considering that development costs will be spread on a relatively small market base. For this, Nokia has unique advantages, because it is a world company with good distribution channels in place.
Maybe we should see this from the business point of view. When I hear about the "cell phone industry needing DRM and locked parts" I suppose that Dr Jaaski is thinking about the demands of carriers and the fact that most end users buy subsidized phones with what is basically "pay by lock-in". For this business model, the phone needs DRM and locks so that the customer can be forced to keep paying for the contracts and has no choice where to buy his software (music, games, ringtones, etc...). It is a business model invented by Gillette a century ago: give the razor for free, and make profits on the blades.
This is a good model for the industry, because it ensures a more regular cash-flow (regular payments instead of a one-time buy), and usually brings more revenues, since the total price is hidden (more than one young people ended up broke from their cell phone bill).
But is this the only possible business model? Certainly not. There is a sizeable portion of the market which prefers unlocked phones, and are prepared to pay the upfront costs. And those are the people who bought the tablets, which did not sell so bad at all. Interestingly, most proponents of the open source model are like that, so the reactions to the DRM and locks comments are not surprising.
In the end, it is down to the customers. Many customers prefer subsidized phones, and are prepared to live with locks. That is one side of the market. But Nokia should not forget about the other side of the market: people who want open devices, and are prepared to pay the costs upfront. That market is small, but it cannot be that small. And it is underserved by the industry, so there must be a business opportunity to take.
The challenge will be to keep the upfront price low enough, considering that development costs will be spread on a relatively small market base. For this, Nokia has unique advantages, because it is a world company with good distribution channels in place.
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2008-06-14
, 09:36
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Posts: 3,790 |
Thanked: 5,718 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ Vienna, Austria
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#37
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Originally Posted by qgil
I'd be especially interested in a listing of upstream-projects Nokia contributed to. (and a short summary of what was contributed and why)
The problem is perhaps about communication and context. This is one reason why I'm proposing to showcase the contributions made from the Maemo project to the open source community.
The perception about Nokia is that
a) They're morally evil because they're big and successful
b) They bought Trolltech to take QT away from the community
c) They're experimenting (in niche markets) with open source, trying to use it only to reduce costs but not playing by the rules of the community
You can't change this just by saying "no, we're not evil. at least not all that much." - You will have to accept this is what people think. The only thing you can do is add d), e) and f) to the list, all of which showing good things you do.
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2008-06-14
, 10:02
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Posts: 631 |
Thanked: 1,123 times |
Joined on Sep 2005
@ Helsinki
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#38
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Originally Posted by Jerome
Dr. Jaaksi, but yes, you're right on this.
Maybe we should see this from the business point of view. When I hear about the "cell phone industry needing DRM and locked parts" I suppose that Dr Jaaski is thinking about the demands of carriers and the fact that most end users buy subsidized phones with what is basically "pay by lock-in". For this business model, the phone needs DRM and locks so that the customer can be forced to keep paying for the contracts and has no choice where to buy his software (music, games, ringtones, etc...). -- This is a good model for the industry, because it ensures a more regular cash-flow (regular payments instead of a one-time buy), and usually brings more revenues, since the total price is hidden (more than one young people ended up broke from their cell phone bill). But is this the only possible business model? Certainly not.
But about adding the possibility to support DRM and Simlocking for instance, I don't really see how it takes something away from the device or the platform. It doesn't mean that all the content and features would automatically become locked, it's more about the capability to provide the device with flavours that either then support these features or not. If you compare for instance to the current mobile phones from Nokia, I'd say nearly all of them have the capability to be sold locked to a certain operator, but they can also be unlocked. And if they support for instance Microsoft DRM for media, it doesn't affect all the media - it's just about the capability to also play that particular kind of media. I see it only as an added capability, I don't really see how it subtracts.
Because, exactly as you were saying, it's then about the consumers. The consumers can then make the decisions of whether they are ok with this or not. And I would perhaps say that most consumers do not have the same kind of passion against all things non-open and non-locked, they are more concerned with getting features, getting a great user experience etc. Take iPhone for instance, it has the Fairplay DRM there. It's an enabler that allows Apple in their minds - and many seem to agree
- to make a more compelling offer for the consumers.
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2008-06-14
, 10:08
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Posts: 4,708 |
Thanked: 4,649 times |
Joined on Oct 2007
@ Bulgaria
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#39
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In a recent Phoronix article there were Xorg contribution stats. Nokia has contributed almost 10%. For comparison Novell has only 4%, Intel - 13.5%, Red Hat - 16%
Last edited by Bundyo; 2008-06-14 at 10:43.
__________________
Technically, there are three determinate states the cat could be in: Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Technically, there are three determinate states the cat could be in: Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Last edited by Bundyo; 2008-06-14 at 10:43.
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2008-06-14
, 10:34
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Posts: 477 |
Thanked: 118 times |
Joined on Dec 2005
@ Munich, Germany
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#40
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Dr Jaaski indeed. Maybe we should correct the title of this thread.
And don't forget that I am also locked to a single version of a single o.s. I have an old Sharp Zaurus. The opie distribution was a much welcomed improvement on the Sharp version. Some people run kde on their Nokia tablets(***).
Thee is also the problem of closed source libraries. If you want to upgrade major parts of the system, it is often needed to recompile them. With closed source you have to wait untill the manufacturer does it (which means between weeks and eternity if the hardware is no more supported).
Basically it comes down to that: the more open a device is, the more I can customize it to my liking.
(*) It's only cosmetic, but I'd like to delete the 4 "dowload" directories which Nokia left in the browser bookmarks. I can't. I am not the only one complaining.
(**) Which means in practice that I have to bring it to Nokia service and pay.
(***) And don't get me started about all the users who bought WinCE or Symbian devices to find out that their very buggy system would never be upgraded or corrected. You had to buy a new device, end of support.
Last edited by Jerome; 2008-06-14 at 10:46.
Originally Posted by ragnar
I'll take my unlocked E51 as an example. Sure, I can play whatever music or movie I happen to have around, and use it with the carrier of my liking, but I can't browse the filesystem as I would like (*). There are some third party programs for it, but nothing as hacky as kismet (for example). I don't know of any third party drivers for hardware either. I need windows to upgrade the firmware (**). Sometimes, it will refuse to copy mp3 files over bluetooth for no apparent reason (saying drm protected or something of the like). Etc...
But about adding the possibility to support DRM and Simlocking for instance, I don't really see how it takes something away from the device or the platform.
And don't forget that I am also locked to a single version of a single o.s. I have an old Sharp Zaurus. The opie distribution was a much welcomed improvement on the Sharp version. Some people run kde on their Nokia tablets(***).
Thee is also the problem of closed source libraries. If you want to upgrade major parts of the system, it is often needed to recompile them. With closed source you have to wait untill the manufacturer does it (which means between weeks and eternity if the hardware is no more supported).
Basically it comes down to that: the more open a device is, the more I can customize it to my liking.
(*) It's only cosmetic, but I'd like to delete the 4 "dowload" directories which Nokia left in the browser bookmarks. I can't. I am not the only one complaining.
(**) Which means in practice that I have to bring it to Nokia service and pay.
(***) And don't get me started about all the users who bought WinCE or Symbian devices to find out that their very buggy system would never be upgraded or corrected. You had to buy a new device, end of support.
Last edited by Jerome; 2008-06-14 at 10:46.
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You can judge his words. Please do, it's always useful to follow reactions. But at the end what counts are Nokia's actions. How many companies are shipping commercial devices with a higher percentage of and endorsement to open source? How many companies are making a higher open source contribution through new and patched code and direct support to OSS projects and specialized companies? How many companies in the league of Nokia are willing to discuss publicly with the open source community about potential futures of expansion to mass markets?
Anyway, time will tell. In the meantime the progression of Nokia in the open source arena since 2004 tells already a lot. The problem is perhaps about communication and context. This is one reason why I'm proposing to showcase the contributions made from the Maemo project to the open source community.
That was the serious part.
2. Can someone name realistic examples for "screws"?
3. The interesting question is how these companies are going to implement Android in consumer products. Opposing Google and Nokia here doesn't make much sense since both have common issues and interests when it comes to face the current business models in the mobile industry.
http://maemo.org/profile/view/qgil/ + http://qt-project.org