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	GeneralAntilles	2008-07-04 , 07:35
	Posts: 5,478 \| Thanked: 5,222 times \| Joined on Jan 2006 @ St. Petersburg, FL	#21

Originally Posted by anidel

(even tho they have just released the diablo)

It's interesting to note that the OS2008 user site choose to go with the devil direction for the Diablo advertising.

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	brontide	2008-07-04 , 13:15
	Posts: 868 \| Thanked: 474 times \| Joined on Oct 2007 @ Capital District, NY, USA	#22

Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles

"High-priority" is pretty meaningless in the current bugzilla, as there isn't really a good triaging process for priority in place. Anything specific in mind?

Are you really serious that Nokia has nothing in place to triage bugs? Their developers just work on what they feel like? Here are a few that I have personally witnessed since "upgrading".

Modest where crashes range in level from annoying to frustrating as it takes out hildon-desktop. ( they have had this problem for MONTHS without resolution ). Bugzilla just upgraded this bug to "high priority" this morning.
RTCom updates? This is one of the more stable Nokia software products and it somehow missed the cut.
VoIP still seems to need prodding to produce volume. This is on top of the purely functional issues with the VoIP and messaging UI's.
Year old firefox render engine
GPS, now with an unstable A-GPS support that effectively brings down the GPS subsystem when it fails
browserd which will consume 100% of the memory in the unit, doesn't handle keyboard shortcuts properly
Failed connections to networks will leave the network in the connections list until a reboot

And these are all bugs that I have run into since flashing to diablo. Each one is either a) because of new Nokia software or b) an existing, well known bug from Chinook.

Last edited by brontide; 2008-07-04 at 13:24.

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	GeneralAntilles	2008-07-04 , 13:56
	Posts: 5,478 \| Thanked: 5,222 times \| Joined on Jan 2006 @ St. Petersburg, FL	#23

Originally Posted by brontide

Are you really serious that Nokia has nothing in place to triage bugs? Their developers just work on what they feel like? Here are a few that I have personally witnessed since "upgrading".

No, they have an, apparently, quite nice internal tracker that is well triaged and managed (you can see references to internal tickets in the Alias field).

My point is that a "high" priority on bugs in bugzilla don't necessarily reflect the bug priorities on the internal tracker. Many bugs have submitter-set "high" priorities, which have nothing to do with any real priority.

See bug #630 for some background, but Andre has been working his way through the entire almost-4000-bug bug-list and triaging each and every one of them (which includes linking them to internal bugs and reporting back any relevant information from them), and working on changing the way Nokia engineers do business with relation to bugzilla. So while things are looking up moving forward, a "high" priority in bugzilla shouldn't necessarily be taken as an indicator of any internal priority.

Originally Posted by brontide

Modest where crashes range in level from annoying to frustrating as it takes out hildon-desktop. ( they have had this problem for MONTHS without resolution ). Bugzilla just upgraded this bug to "high priority" this morning.

Apparently the tinymail threads are crashing for some reason or another, it's being worked on and some of the fixes should have made it into the svn. johnx compiled it yesterday, and I'm certain he'd be willing to share a binary if you asked.

Originally Posted by brontide

RTCom updates? This is one of the more stable Nokia software products and it somehow missed the cut.

rtcomm was upgraded with Diablo, just the Telepathy plugins didn't make it in. I hear this could've had something to do with Nokia not having talked to those providers yet. Not really sure, though.

Originally Posted by brontide

VoIP still seems to need prodding to produce volume. This is on top of the purely functional issues with the VoIP and messaging UI's.

I personally don't have a lot of problems with volume and VoIP, but, yeah, the volume as a whole for the entire platform is a little low for what the hardware is capable of.

Originally Posted by brontide

Year old firefox render engine

This one has been covered a lot already. But I'll explain it again here. Major code changes are frozen 2-3 months before the release, and merging with the latest Firefox code is a non-trivial task, which means there was not enough time to merge with one of the RC releases (and definitely not with the final release) and the code that was available to make the timeframe simply wasn't worth "upgrading" to. Unfortunate, yes, but those are the facts.

Now, from what I can tell a lot of the big Diablo bugs have been fixed internally, so if you want try your luck with the svn (which, actually, I think was merged with trunk a week or two ago) I'm sure you'll find it to be quite a bit nicer (probably want to install osso-software-version-rx*4-unlocked for the non-strict dependencies, first, though).

Originally Posted by brontide

GPS, now with an unstable A-GPS support that effectively brings down the GPS subsystem when it fails

Yes, that's why the AGPS support is beta, and doesn't ship with Diablo. . . .

Originally Posted by brontide

browserd which will consume 100% of the memory in the unit, doesn't handle keyboard shortcuts properly

Is that top consumption? Because top consumption is entirely meaningless.

Install htop and get back to me on that one.

Originally Posted by brontide

Failed connections to networks will leave the network in the connections list until a reboot

Yes, icd underwent a fairly significant upgrade (WiMAX stuff) and didn't seem to get enough testing before it hit release. Saved connections seem to be a problem, and it sometimes crashes out and the GUI wont be able to reconnect to it for some reason.

Originally Posted by brontide

And these are all bugs that I have run into since flashing to diablo. Each one is either a) because of new Nokia software or b) an existing, well known bug from Chinook.

. . . and yet, I've found Diablo to be a net positive overall. Application manager is much more usable, overall system stability is improved here, virtual input methods are much more consistent system-wide, and much of the phantom typing in the fkb and vkb seems to have been eliminated.

The thing to keep in mind for Diablo, though, is SSU. The good news is that a lot of the issues seem to be getting fixed internally, and all that's needed is a couple of SSU pushes to get them to us (well, or you can try out the svns for the open stuff if that's your thing)—no waiting 4 months for another big firmware release.

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	brontide	2008-07-04 , 14:25
	Posts: 868 \| Thanked: 474 times \| Joined on Oct 2007 @ Capital District, NY, USA	#24

Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles

Apparently the tinymail threads are crashing for some reason or another, it's being worked on and some of the fixes should have made it into the svn. johnx compiled it yesterday, and I'm certain he'd be willing to share a binary if you asked.

Thanks, but the "fix" has been in the svn for months, I'm not going to hold my breath or expect that this binary would fix anything.

I personally don't have a lot of problems with volume and VoIP, but, yeah, the volume as a whole for the entire platform is a little low for what the hardware is capable of.

No, when answering a VoIP phone without a headset on you often have to adjust the volume before it suddenly "kicks in".

This one has been covered a lot already. But I'll explain it again here. Major code changes are frozen 2-3 months before the release...

So that's why Modest was being worked on up until the last minute?

Yes, that's why the AGPS support is beta, and doesn't ship with Diablo. . . .

It's one of the hyped features of this release directly from Nokia. Writing it off as "it's just a beta" doesn't cut it. The whole system is beta if that's the case.

Is that top consumption? Because top consumption is entirely meaningless. Install htop and get back to me on that one.

No according to top it's using 120% of the memory.

. . . and yet, I've found Diablo to be a net positive overall. Application manager is much more usable, overall system stability is improved here, virtual input methods are much more consistent system-wide, and much of the phantom typing in the fkb and vkb seems to have been eliminated.

Better than their previous release... well.. I don't know how much that's saying.

The thing to keep in mind for Diablo, though, is SSU. The good news is that a lot of the issues seem to be getting fixed internally, and all that's needed is a couple of SSU pushes to get them to us (well, or you can try out the svns for the open stuff if that's your thing)—no waiting 4 months for another big firmware release.

Um, that is a complete red herring because Nokia has been able to push out updates this whole time ( Maps in the Chinook release for instance ). SSU may expand the number of packaged under proper management, but they have always had the ability to push an update for the system software.

SSU, as we have already witnessed, will encourage more half-baked releases from Nokia.

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	GeneralAntilles	2008-07-04 , 14:44
	Posts: 5,478 \| Thanked: 5,222 times \| Joined on Jan 2006 @ St. Petersburg, FL	#25

Originally Posted by brontide

Thanks, but the "fix" has been in the svn for months, I'm not going to hold my breath or expect that this binary would fix anything.

Eh, I chatted with the developers a bit a few days ago, they say there've been improvements. I'll take them on there word

Originally Posted by brontide

So that's why Modest was being worked on up until the last minute?

Er, the specs for a shipped product are different than for a un-shipped product. Notice MicroB received frequent releases right up until Chinook shipped.

Originally Posted by brontide

It's one of the hyped features of this release directly from Nokia. Writing it off as "it's just a beta" doesn't cut it. The whole system is beta if that's the case.

The "hype", if you want to call it that, has been from 3rd parties. The only real "hype" I've seen from "Nokia" was a few words in the maemo.org announcement.

Originally Posted by brontide

No according to top it's using 120% of the memory.

Again, top provides completely meaningless memory consumption information. Use htop.

Originally Posted by brontide

Better than their previous release... well.. I don't know how much that's saying.

Originally Posted by brontide

Um, that is a complete red herring because Nokia has been able to
push out updates this whole time ( Maps in the Chinook release for instance ). SSU may expand the number of packaged under proper management, but they have always had the ability to push an update for the system software.

SSU, as we have already witnessed, will encourage more half-baked releases from Nokia.

Technical issues aside, the process wasn't in place for that. But, whatever, you're obviously set on condemning Nokia. Far be it from me to try and stop you.

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	brontide	2008-07-04 , 17:42
	Posts: 868 \| Thanked: 474 times \| Joined on Oct 2007 @ Capital District, NY, USA	#26

Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles

Technical issues aside, the process wasn't in place for that. But, whatever, you're obviously set on condemning Nokia. Far be it from me to try and stop you.

If you wish to ignore how poorly Nokia has handled the development, release, and support of the ITOS it's no skin off of my nose.