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doubledee is offline doubledee
2008-09-30 , 12:46
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#71
There's some great points here, and some potentially exciting stuff.

So I'm not being funny when I ask this, I genuinely would like to understand how future developments would solve/impact this query - how would one play something like 'blocks' on the nit without a hardware d-pad? (or indeed many other games - i know the device is not aimed at gamers, and I am not one, but I'm sure many like me while away the odd half hour with some or other pointless retro pursuit and would wish to continue with future devices?)
 

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Texrat is offline Texrat
2008-09-30 , 13:00
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#72
Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
Basically "you're doing it wrong" if you use the touch screen to draw keys that emulate the hard keys. Hard keys basically fall into the "non-direct" approach whereas touch UI's work on more direct approach: "touch this to do something for this".

There are a few areas where the main interaction - be it unfortunately or not - still requires the hard key emulation, the virtual keyboard being the main area. There are 'good' alternative UI's for text input, Shapewriter etc., but they don't really currently have mainstream acceptance, so we cannot completely rely on them.
I completely understand.

But as we all know, the community at large is not satisfied with leaving the tablets alone. They want to take them in many directions-- and I for one think that is great.

One of those directions is gaming. Now, we screwed up with the N-gage device, and there really was not a good reason for that. With the tablets, we have a chance to rectify that.

I see no reason why we can't learn from the amazing success of the Nintendo DS Lite and incorporate a few gaming controls into the tablets. Gaming, as many of us are aware, is the single biggest driver of platform sales in general these days. In fact, to me the most compelling iPhone ads are the new ones showing just what cool games are available for it (I really like the one where you shake the device to roll dice).

If done properly, the gaming controls would perform other functions when gaming wasn't the intended use.

While I am really attracted to the sleek, simple look of the iPhone, I also think it's unnecessarily limited by its singular focus on the touchscreen. And while that's personal preference, I'm not the only one feeling that way.

Way, way back I proposed here that we have at least 3 tablet form factors at any given time-- one of them focused on media, one on business, and one on gaming. I still feel that way, and don't understand why we're not there yet. Neither do many current and potential customers...
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ragnar is offline ragnar
2008-09-30 , 13:15
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#73
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
-- They want to take them in many directions-- and I for one think that is great. -- One of those directions is gaming. Now, we screwed up with the N-gage device, and there really was not a good reason for that. With the tablets, we have a chance to rectify that. -- I see no reason why we can't learn from the amazing success of the Nintendo DS Lite and incorporate a few gaming controls into the tablets. Gaming, as many of us are aware, is the single biggest driver of platform sales in general these days. In fact, to me the most compelling iPhone ads are the new ones showing just what cool games are available for it (I really like the one where you shake the device to roll dice).

If done properly, the gaming controls would perform other functions when gaming wasn't the intended use. While I am really attracted to the sleek, simple look of the iPhone, I also think it's unnecessarily limited by its singular focus on the touchscreen. And while that's personal preference, I'm not the only one feeling that way.
Gaming is very cool. I personally believe especially in casual gaming for a device like this. The "hard-core games" will still go and be developed towards gaming optimized devices like the game consoles or handheld consoles like PSP. Also of course networked games, for a networked device.

Casual games, where the barrier of entry is much smaller, they can be learned and enjoyed quicker and are more suited for a mobile use context - i.e. temporal usage, on and off.

Going "full out" as a gaming focused device is a risky strategy, though. Take something like the Gizmondo as an example. You need to get the whole package. Gizmondo had ... gaming optimized hardware. (I think we even have one of those devices still somewhere on our shelves around.) And you could do some other stuff with that device also.

But nobody really bought it. Of course for many reasons. Because the games were not there, because for the "other functions" it wasn't then really good (because of the gaming keys, device layout etc.) I don't really believe that you can do both at the same time. Making the device good for gaming will make it worse for other functions.

Games for Linux is a chicken and an egg -problem, and also a commercial problem. Development takes lots of money, the market isn't there, and converting to Linux is far from trivial. I remember reading this discussion a few days ago: http://braid-game.com/news/?p=364

But then again, especially web-based casual games (platform-independent games) run on multiple platforms. I think supporting those is a very good idea.
Last edited by ragnar; 2008-09-30 at 13:21.
 
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2008-09-30 , 13:24
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#74
Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
Going "full out" as a gaming focused device is a risky strategy, though. Take something like the Gizmondo as an example. You need to get the whole package. Gizmondo had ... gaming optimized hardware. (I think we even have one of those devices still somewhere on our shelves around.) And you could do some other stuff with that device also.
You can't really use Gizmondo as an example-- there was criminal fraud embedded in their business model, so the device (however cool) was immaterial. It was never going anywhere.

And I know the handheld gaming market can be a pain, but somehow Nintendo and Sony have succeeded despite the barriers. Do they have special magic that no one else does?

EDIT: Oh, and I am a big believer in Flash games (addicted to Dicewars on my N810), and believe we are missing the boat there.
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Last edited by Texrat; 2008-09-30 at 13:31.
 

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ragnar is offline ragnar
2008-09-30 , 13:33
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#75
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
You can't really use Gizmondo as an And I know the handheld gaming market can be a pain, but somehow Nintendo and Sony have succeeded despite the barriers. Do they have special magic that no one else does? EDIT: Oh, and I am a big believe rin Flash games (addicted to Dicewars on my N810), and believe we are missing the boat there.
Nintendo and Sony have done decades of painstaking work in building up the developer connections, markets, networks, knowledge and understanding about gaming and gamers. It's - nothing is impossible, but it is extremely hard to enter that market competitively.

Looking at the desktop consoles, the Xbox is a good example of what it took from Microsoft to enter to the market dominated by Sony and Nintendo. The Xbox division lost 4 billion dollars in its first four years, and that was just to get to the same level. That was their special sauce. They did very good work there certainly. Gaming needs the gaming platforms, and they need the critical mass. The only gaming platform available to mobile devices _right now_ that has the critical mass is the web-based platform.

On the other hand, for that I don't fear missing the boat. As long as the "boat" is a web-based platform and not specifically tied to any device or solution provider, anyone can board the boat and get the passengers in when the cruising business would become sufficiently... - now this metaphor is getting too far
 
SD69 is offline SD69
2008-09-30 , 13:36
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#76
Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
Therefore you can have a "productivity focused device" with a HW keyboard and say a media-consumption device that skips a keyboard for smaller size and/or other features. (These are of course hypothetical device examples.)

That principle should also go for the other keys. If you look at for example some of the latest S60 devices, a few of them have the media playback keys. That's cool for them. It would turn out to be not cool if in the all those devices would have to have these keys in the future, that would seriously limit the design potential of those devices.

Support but don't require.
That would be good. I like that. Gaming is difficult, we shouldn't equate the D-pad with gaming as it also has many other case uses.
Last edited by SD69; 2008-09-30 at 16:07.
 
sjgadsby is offline sjgadsby
2008-09-30 , 13:53
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#77
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
...somehow Nintendo and Sony have succeeded despite the barriers. Do they have special magic that no one else does?
No worries, after a few classes from Ken Kutaragi, Ari Jaaksi will be able to proudly stand before crowds and proclaim that tablet users will happily work more hours to purchase an N900.

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Texrat is offline Texrat
2008-09-30 , 13:58
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#78
Originally Posted by sjgadsby View Post
No worries, after a few classes from Ken Kutaragi, Ari Jaaksi will be able to proudly stand before crowds and proclaim that tablet users will happily work more hours to purchase an N900.
LOL... amazing how badly Sony did misfire with the PS3. But I was just talking about the PSP.
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2008-09-30 , 14:00
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#79
Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
On the other hand, for that I don't fear missing the boat. As long as the "boat" is a web-based platform and not specifically tied to any device or solution provider, anyone can board the boat and get the passengers in when the cruising business would become sufficiently... - now this metaphor is getting too far
What I mean by "missing the boat" is underestimating the Flash potential, and neglecting to bundle several Flash games with the tablets.
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sjgadsby is offline sjgadsby
2008-09-30 , 14:04
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#80
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
But I was just talking about the PSP.
I know, but with Sony's "special magic" brought into the discussion and folks worrying about the price of the so-called N900 in other threads, I just couldn't resist.
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