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2008-11-03
, 13:13
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Posts: 1,513 |
Thanked: 2,248 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ US
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#242
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First of all, there is nothing that cannot be done, given enough effort. However, I didn't try to talk just about the basic differences... Yes, you can do a system with a reasonable effort that shows different size icons and buttons for the UI for stylus and finger, but at least I'm not a fan of doing things halfway, I tried to talk about "optimal" UI's. Optimal UI's should not feel like compromises.
Information density is basically split in half for finger vs. stylus, meaning how many controls or UI elements you can put on the screen. If you have a plan how you could design a system-wide style that would automatically accommodate the UI's so that the amount of information and the amount, size and placement of the UI controls in any given view would work for both stylus and finger optimized formats, please let me know about it.
Let the apps developer decide what is the best UI for the app. Make the bindings available at the app layer and you don't have to worry about it.
A finger optimal UI won't be stylus optimal UI and vice versa. At least platform-wise, since people are going through different applications, in and out, switching between them, doing different tasks, different views and windows, having some apps stylus-driven (hey, i need to take the stylus out) and others finger-driven (damn, i need to put it back in) will not create a satisfying user experience.
But also as noted in some of the comments here, nothing basically prevents "you" as the developers from doing otherwise
Thanks for your comments this morning.
Last edited by SD69; 2008-11-03 at 13:23.
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2008-11-03
, 13:31
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Posts: 3,397 |
Thanked: 1,212 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
@ Netherlands
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#243
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Originally Posted by ragnar
While I agree it is a lot of work it could be part of the theme to make judgement on this.
If you have a plan how you could design a system-wide style that would automatically accommodate the UI's so that the amount of information and the amount, size and placement of the UI controls in any given view would work for both stylus and finger optimized formats, please let me know about it.
Then, a theme could modify even settings of application. For example, in a file manager one generally wants a list view on a desktop or stylus-touch because it gives details. But in a finger-touch environment one would want to see maps. In the same way, a theme can do this for RSS applet, Modest (e.g. the scrollbar but also size of the messages to click on). If you build this functionality in the definition of the themes you allow both worlds, and the community can extend on the work with both camps being happy. Likewise, the stylus-fans will have easier work to get their way of using the device.
Some things must be researched: the size of a finger, the way most people use a touch screen with their finger. Some way to callibrate this. This is so the device can adjust to the user, so it gives optimal experience, because not every finger is the same. But thats perhaps for longer term.
__________________
Goosfraba! All text written by allnameswereout is public domain unless stated otherwise. Thank you for sharing your output!
Goosfraba! All text written by allnameswereout is public domain unless stated otherwise. Thank you for sharing your output!
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2008-11-03
, 13:31
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Posts: 137 |
Thanked: 138 times |
Joined on Sep 2007
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#244
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Originally Posted by lcuk
Very specific use-cases, if you ask me. I doubt that anybody is willing to use a device for a prolonged time outside if it is so cold that you can't take of one hand's glove for a minute. And even with a stylus, using a TS device with a glove is still very awkward imho.
chlettn,
of course its not the only casualty, in different environments having to use a finger is futile. Its getting cold round here, I can't imagine many people playing with their iphones stood at the busstop with their gloves on.
Originally Posted by lcuk
Why is driving and using a tablet-like device at the same time suddenly so important that it is brought up again and again?
Same for driving gloves and gps.
Originally Posted by lcuk
Having to find a way though menus to copy/paste stuff is arguably just as "stupid" and counter-intuitive, if you ask me. Why is a simple gesture more "stupid" in your opinion?
Coming up with a vulcan mind grip for something thats as naturally intuitive as text selection is just stupid.
Originally Posted by lcuk
I think that being unwilling to abandon usage paradigms that were designed for different input devices (keyboards & mice) is a weak excuse for being against changes that create better UX - the iPhone isn't lauded UI-wise for nothing, after all...
Thats not innovation thats backtracking and trying to replicate already existing well understood common functionality with something that takes a whole page to explain.
And "a whole page to explain"? Seriously? I think that Joe and Jane Average would be smart enough to understand the 5 or so gestures needed everyday after watching a 2 minute introduction animation to them that is shown the first time the devices is powered up...
| The Following User Says Thank You to chlettn For This Useful Post: | ||
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2008-11-03
, 14:34
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Posts: 3,790 |
Thanked: 5,718 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ Vienna, Austria
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#245
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Originally Posted by chlettn
Interesting link, but wrong topic.
Actually, there is at least one very simply and handy way to do that: the way a BlackBerry Storm does it.
http://gallery.techarena.in/showphoto.php/photo/16021 - finally a real-life benefit from multitouch...
The problem is not how to tell the application that now I want to select rather than scroll (we have the same situation now with selecting text in the browser, it always requires some quirks).
The problem is that I won't be able to precisely hit the area where the selection should start.
It's difficult enough with a small stylus on the current touch screen. When you say "capacitive touch screen" and "fingers", I of course have to think of the jPhone and the way its touchscreen works. I'm not even able to type on the virtual keyboard with my fingers on the jPhone in portrait mode (and have to really concentrate to make it work somehow in landscape mode). So if I can't even hit relatively large keys, how would I be able to tell the application that my selection starts between "the" and "reason" in a text thats only 25% the size of those keys?
Originally Posted by chlettn
So we intentionally choose a not-so-perfect hardware for input in order to force applications to work around the shortcomings of this hardware, hoping that for some reason this will magically result in better applications. "Survival of the fittest", right?
And that's actually a good example why I think that going finger-only is a good thing (maybe not short-term, but after a while): it forces developers to come up with better thought-through UIs, which ultimately means better apps.
Let me think about this for a moment....
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2008-11-03
, 14:41
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Posts: 600 |
Thanked: 742 times |
Joined on Sep 2008
@ England
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#246
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Originally Posted by benny1967
The reason you can't do it on iPhone is simply that Apple hasn't programmed it. Here's a YouTube concept video showing how copy/paste could be done on the iPhone using multi-touch:
Fingers on a capacitive touchscreen... What a great combination for selecting text for copypasting.
There's a reason why you can't do this on the jPhone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nchuidJ_CYw
And here's how it worked on the Apple Newton, 15 years ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sue2BR1AHUE
| The Following User Says Thank You to eiffel For This Useful Post: | ||
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2008-11-03
, 15:03
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Posts: 3,790 |
Thanked: 5,718 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ Vienna, Austria
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#247
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Originally Posted by eiffel
I'd need a (much?) bigger loupe, but it could work that way. Nice concept video. I don't think it's very intuitive (maybe somebody comes up with better gestures to initiate/end the selection), but it might even work better than what we do today with the stylus:
Here's a YouTube concept video showing how copy/paste could be done on the iPhone using multi-touch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nchuidJ_CYw
The stylus "leaves selection mode" whenever you accidentally lift it - which sometimes happens with langer selections. If you force selection mode as in this concept video, you needn't hold down all the way.
Originally Posted by eiffel
OK, 15 years can help improving the situation
And here's how it worked on the Apple Newton, 15 years ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sue2BR1AHUE
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2008-11-03
, 15:09
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Posts: 137 |
Thanked: 138 times |
Joined on Sep 2007
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#248
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Originally Posted by benny1967
How so?
Interesting link, but wrong topic.
Originally Posted by benny1967
I assume that some smart algorithm could make this a whole lot less painfull (by eg trying to analyse sentence/paragraph/word structure of the selected area) or, simply, show a popup with a zoomed-in version of the selected text, allowing for simple & quick modifications. Or something else aiding selection, I don't know. The point is - I'm positive that some creative thinking "outside the box" (yeah, I hate that overused phrase just as much as you do) will lead to better usability than we have right now (as you admit yourself it's less than stellar).
The problem is not how to tell the application that now I want to select rather than scroll (we have the same situation now with selecting text in the browser, it always requires some quirks).
The problem is that I won't be able to precisely hit the area where the selection should start. It's difficult enough with a small stylus on the current touch screen.
Originally Posted by benny1967
"Not-so-perfect" hardware is very subjective, if you ask me.
So we intentionally choose a not-so-perfect hardware for input in order to force applications to work around the shortcomings of this hardware, hoping that for some reason this will magically result in better applications. "Survival of the fittest", right?
Is the current NIT touchscreen hardware anywhere near perfect? Not to me, to be honest. I'd much prefer having a screen that reacts reliably to the slightest fingerbrushes and traces my fingers accurately while moving them across the screen (and that is impossible with a resistive TS), even with the disadvantages that brings. Because most of those disadvantages can be worked around with smarter software, while you can't work around something the system doesn't even register like unnoticed TS contacts which are so common with resistive screens.
And for the "magically" better apps: the vast majority of Maemo software is created by enthusiasts who begin programming for the NITs because they want to have that certain app for themselves, first and foremost. They're constantly eating their own dogfood (to abuse yet another overused phrase), so to speak, so they have every motivation to create a usable UI. And that will happen despite limitations like finger-only TS usage and ultimately lead to a much more consistent UI/UX, which is a good thing in my opinion.
Last edited by chlettn; 2008-11-03 at 15:12.
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2008-11-03
, 15:21
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Posts: 4,930 |
Thanked: 2,272 times |
Joined on Oct 2007
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#249
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There's no denying a capacitive sensor is best for finger usage, and also that stylus input is valuable for some purposes. Rather than trading these off against each other, we can get both against device cost and power drain.
I think we really need a dual-mode screen with capacitive touch for fingers, and either resistive touch or (preferably) active digitizer for a stylus. I'm not really optimistic about actually getting this, but it's the righteous solution that gives best results for all input methods. As a bonus, some UI mode switching can automatically occur based on which sensor is being used.
Power draw may be minimized by switching the digitizer off when the stylus is stowed, if it's a problem. OTOH, if it shortens the screen-on battery life 10%, I'd be content... especially if it inspired Nokia to put twice the battery in.
I think we really need a dual-mode screen with capacitive touch for fingers, and either resistive touch or (preferably) active digitizer for a stylus. I'm not really optimistic about actually getting this, but it's the righteous solution that gives best results for all input methods. As a bonus, some UI mode switching can automatically occur based on which sensor is being used.
Power draw may be minimized by switching the digitizer off when the stylus is stowed, if it's a problem. OTOH, if it shortens the screen-on battery life 10%, I'd be content... especially if it inspired Nokia to put twice the battery in.
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2008-11-03
, 15:28
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Posts: 3,790 |
Thanked: 5,718 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ Vienna, Austria
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#250
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Originally Posted by Benson
It's not either/or. You can use a capacitive touch screen with a stylus. A lot of jPhone users go berserk with finger usage after the first few weeks (can't think why), that's why there are special stylus models (see how I work around this plural?) you can use even on a capacitive touch screen.
I think we really need a dual-mode screen with capacitive touch for fingers, and either resistive touch or (preferably) active digitizer for a stylus.
I think it depends on the material used.
Goosfraba! All text written by allnameswereout is public domain unless stated otherwise. Thank you for sharing your output!