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2008-11-04
, 17:59
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@ Vancouver, BC, Canada
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#272
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Originally Posted by Jerome
I notice that free wifi points are very crowded these days. Some are so crowded that they won't give me an IP address during the evening hours if I need to "hook up" for a second.
A very new use for portable devices that is emerging is Internet browsing and e-mail. This is the result of the iPhone. Today, I see iPhones everywhere. I also see kids with iPods touch. And I see those people near free wifi stations. I also people with symbian phones near these wifi stations, which was not the case a year ago.
So apparently, since the iPhone, a large number of people have started to realise the use of free wifi access points. And this is exactly the market that the N800 was chasing a year ago, and largely failed. I don't know why.
Originally Posted by Jerome
I see other tablets... but they were bought by guys who thought mine was cool. I have to agree with you, the power of hype is huge, and the iPhone got lots and lots of hype.
-what space is there for a wifi tablet device in this changed landscape? Before you answer, please realise that Apple (yes, again) has a wifi-only tablet in the form of the iPod touch, and that they sell it in large enough number for me to see some used, while I never see any other N810 than the ones I bought.
Really, a key thing is that Nokia has to figure out how to get the hype.
Originally Posted by qgil
Oh hurry hurry hurry... I'm so impatient... <hops up and down>
....a real API once it is published.... an alpha release months before any final release ... no hardware announcements or plans have been disclosed around Maemo... you can't deny that there has been progress through the 770, N800 and N810 hardware. I have no reasons to think this progress will be stalled.
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Last edited by qole; 2008-11-04 at 18:05.
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2008-11-04
, 18:38
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Posts: 137 |
Thanked: 138 times |
Joined on Sep 2007
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#273
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Originally Posted by qole
I agree.
I see other tablets... but they were bought by guys who thought mine was cool. I have to agree with you, the power of hype is huge, and the iPhone got lots and lots of hype.
Really, a key thing is that Nokia has to figure out how to get the hype.
BUT: To be honest, I doubt that any company other than Apple (and maybe Google) can build up such an amount of hype. I think that the largest part of all the "hype generation" happens on blogs nowadays. And the blogosphere is dominated by American blogs, especially the tech-related part. Nokia is a minor player in the US, with rather little influence, so they're kinda lucky if they're noticed at all (just look at TechCrunch's opinion regarding Nokia - an very influential blog calling Nokia "irrelevant").
They do try to change that via lots of blogger relations programs like WOM World, but that still doesn't really get the attention of the huge, opinion-leading blogs imho. While the iPhone and the G1 constantly get at least half a dozen posts per week on Engadget and Gizmodo, the comparable 5800 got a little hands-on post on launch day and pretty much nothing since. Not to mention that Apple products (and only Apple products afaik) are hyped by huge non-tech blogs like Perez Hilton, and reach completely new interest groups by that...
I have that feeling that even a 100% superior Nokia product wouldn't cause the mass media news to report their launches (like it happened with both iPhone launches) or get people to line up for hours and even days in front of a shop (like with the iPhone and to a lesser degree, the G1)...
Last edited by chlettn; 2008-11-04 at 18:42.
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2008-11-04
, 19:06
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Posts: 900 |
Thanked: 273 times |
Joined on Aug 2008
@ Fresno CA USA
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#274
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Originally Posted by chlettn
Excellent valid points. It's a shame that in blogs, personal opinion trumps jouralism standards. Irrelevant is a subjective term. The buzz belongs to iPhone and G1 but Nokia's world market share in cell phones is far from irrelevant. Nokia could take some marketing lessons from Apple.
I agree.
BUT: To be honest, I doubt that any company other than Apple (and maybe Google) can build up such an amount of hype. I think that the largest part of all the "hype generation" happens on blogs nowadays. And the blogosphere is dominated by American blogs, especially the tech-related part. Nokia is a minor player in the US, with rather little influence, so they're kinda lucky if they're noticed at all (just look at TechCrunch's opinion regarding Nokia - an very influential blog calling Nokia "irrelevant").
They do try to change that via lots of blogger relations programs like WOM World, but that still doesn't really get the attention of the huge, opinion-leading blogs imho. While the iPhone and the G1 constantly get at least half a dozen posts per week on Engadget and Gizmodo, the comparable 5800 got a little hands-on post on launch day and pretty much nothing since. Not to mention that Apple products (and only Apple products afaik) are hyped by huge non-tech blogs like Perez Hilton, and reach completely new interest groups by that...
I have that feeling that even a 100% superior Nokia product wouldn't cause the mass media news to report their launches (like it happened with both iPhone launches) or get people to line up for hours and even days in front of a shop (like with the iPhone and to a lesser degree, the G1)...
__________________
George Fragos
Internet Coach & Writer
Maemo Mapper HowTo
Personal Blog -- 3 Joe's Blog
N810 -- 5.2010.33-1
George Fragos
Internet Coach & Writer
Maemo Mapper HowTo
Personal Blog -- 3 Joe's Blog
N810 -- 5.2010.33-1
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2008-11-04
, 19:48
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Joined on Dec 2005
@ Munich, Germany
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#275
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I am not so sure. First, Nokia can generate hype. They have generated quite some attention about some of their phones. It is just that maemo is not pushed by their marketing department. Second, one can make quite a lot of money without hype.
Really this is about recognising that the whole picture is changing. Lucky us, or maemo would finished as the sharp zaurus has. Nokia made exactly the same mistakes. If the picture wasn't changing, I would not be hopeful at all. But it is. The interesting question is just: where would the Net be in a year or two? (I've given some pointers) Then we can try to figure out where we fit in.
Maybe the simple question is: "what do non geek people do with a tablet device? "
Really this is about recognising that the whole picture is changing. Lucky us, or maemo would finished as the sharp zaurus has. Nokia made exactly the same mistakes. If the picture wasn't changing, I would not be hopeful at all. But it is. The interesting question is just: where would the Net be in a year or two? (I've given some pointers) Then we can try to figure out where we fit in.
Maybe the simple question is: "what do non geek people do with a tablet device? "
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2008-11-04
, 19:51
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Joined on Dec 2007
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#276
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Originally Posted by qgil
Okay, you caught me. I have an agenda. I want Nokia to feature and price the n900 to my needs. I'm totally busted.
Ah well, but then it's clear that all this thread is based on pure speculation since no hardware announcements or plans have been disclosed around Maemo.
You are inside this market place this, business segment that just as much as me and anybody else in this thread. Your words of buying somewhere else if Nokia doesn't fulfill your interests are a good and very practical example. You said that Nokia had probably no idea about users like you and I'm just trying to say that probably Nokia does know, and a lot.
I'm not trying to convince you, just attempting to explain how these things work. You have very good points but then you kind of loose them making too simplistic or plain wrong statements.
The n810 upsetting some people while satisfying some more is also a fact, by the way. Like there was people saying that the 770 was way better than the N800. You might be among those upset, but you can't deny that there has been progress through the 770, N800 and N810 hardware. I have no reasons to think this progress will be stalled.
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2008-11-04
, 20:11
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Posts: 2,427 |
Thanked: 2,986 times |
Joined on Dec 2007
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#277
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Originally Posted by fragos
It's real simple:
Nokia could take some marketing lessons from Apple.
First, listen to your customers and others.
Second, actually have a product to sell.
Now start your hype machine. Ram it home.
Profit.
Rinse.
Repeat.
You do this by freezing good requirements to Absolute Zero, internally shutting everybody up and telling your board to f*ck off when they want you to market vaporware. It takes a strong hand.
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2008-11-04
, 20:17
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Posts: 137 |
Thanked: 138 times |
Joined on Sep 2007
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#278
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Originally Posted by Jerome
Quite some attention? Yeah, definitely. The N95 launch was huge, sadly the market entry was a bit overshadowed.
First, Nokia can generate hype. They have generated quite some attention about some of their phones.
A iPhone like media frenzy? Not really.
Originally Posted by Jerome
Yeah, that I don't doubt for a second. Nokia doesn't live off a single iconic product, but a myriad of different offerings that cover the pretty much the whole market, from the lowest-end all the way up to the feature beast...
Second, one can make quite a lot of money without hype.
Originally Posted by Jerome
I don't think Nokia ever saw the tablets as mass market devices, and comments about how they were actually taken by surprise by the N800's success confirms that feeling. Spending a lot of money to advertise niche devices isn't a great idea, especially not if the devices are (like they kinda say themselves with their 5-step plan) still rather experimental. Better spend the money for R&D imho...
It is just that maemo is not pushed by their marketing department.
Originally Posted by Jerome
Yeah, I'm pretty happy with the announced upcoming changes/new things in both hardware and software. It seems the focus is shifting towards a more mass-market approach.
Really this is about recognising that the whole picture is changing. Lucky us, or maemo would finished as the sharp zaurus has. Nokia made exactly the same mistakes. If the picture wasn't changing, I would not be hopeful at all. But it is.
Originally Posted by Jerome
It's not quite that simple imho, but I think Nokia spends a lot of money and effort to find out exactly that. My guess: casual web surfing, watching videos, listening to music, emailing, IM, Skype, reading PDFs, navigating. Basically, the standard out-of-the-box stuff...
Maybe the simple question is: "what do non geek people do with a tablet device? "
Originally Posted by Jerome
I don't think anybody really knows that. I guess a lot of start-ups will fall victim to the current financial crisis, so only the more established web 2.0 services will survive longer-term. But the next big thing after all the social stuff? Who knows...location-aware services will be big, services like Qik/Flixwagon/etc. might become fairly big, cloud apps might well become huge and make the browser the absolutely most important app on any device too...but other than that? I really have no idea.
The interesting question is just: where would the Net be in a year or two?
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2008-11-04
, 20:20
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Moderator |
Posts: 7,109 |
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Joined on Oct 2007
@ Vancouver, BC, Canada
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#279
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My belief, and I've stated it before, is that Nokia's Maemo platform is just the right thing for next year's Internet and next year's market. Everything is moving towards the place where the tablets will be, and if Nokia doesn't fumble this, they could have a real winner on their hands.
The tablets, and even moreso the Zaurus, were before their times; they had a vision, but the hardware and software platforms just weren't there to fully support it. The tablets can do all sorts of amazing things, they just don't do any of them particularly well.*
However, Apple did an amazing thing; they had a vision, and the iPhone brought it to life despite the lack of good hardware by using lots of sneaky workarounds (like the YouTube back-door). Apple knows that first impressions are very important, and so the iPhone is really focussed on those first impressions. There's a lot more depth to other devices, like the tablets, but you gotta get people to read past the first few pages, and that means making sure things just work when a new user picks up the device...
Non-geeks want to do most of the same things that geeks want to do with a handheld device; they just aren't willing to wrestle with the thing to get it to work. We all want music and video, both streaming and local; we all want social apps (IM/voice/facebook/twitter/email/contacts) to connect us to our friends and family; we all want some way of jotting notes/reminders/todos in a way that can be easily shared with other devices, we all want a way to easily read documents that people send us or that we download (MS Office / PDF / e-books), we all want to be able to keep up on the news (news sites, blogs, stocks, weather, etc), we all want to play games, and of course, we all want to be able to surf the web.
There are lots of other things, kinda "icing on the cake" stuff, that people would use if it was done right, especially a good camera that can do still photos and video, then upload these easily to user-defined location(s); GPS / mapping / location awareness stuff; presentation control; remote control of devices in your home; etc, etc.
We all want that stuff; the geeks will work to make it happen, non-geeks will give up quickly and return the device if it doesn't do what they want.
* EDIT: Please don't argue about this point. I'm as much of a tablet evangelist as anybody, but even I confess that the limitations are in-your-face obvious.
Last edited by qole; 2008-11-04 at 20:25.
The tablets, and even moreso the Zaurus, were before their times; they had a vision, but the hardware and software platforms just weren't there to fully support it. The tablets can do all sorts of amazing things, they just don't do any of them particularly well.*
However, Apple did an amazing thing; they had a vision, and the iPhone brought it to life despite the lack of good hardware by using lots of sneaky workarounds (like the YouTube back-door). Apple knows that first impressions are very important, and so the iPhone is really focussed on those first impressions. There's a lot more depth to other devices, like the tablets, but you gotta get people to read past the first few pages, and that means making sure things just work when a new user picks up the device...
Non-geeks want to do most of the same things that geeks want to do with a handheld device; they just aren't willing to wrestle with the thing to get it to work. We all want music and video, both streaming and local; we all want social apps (IM/voice/facebook/twitter/email/contacts) to connect us to our friends and family; we all want some way of jotting notes/reminders/todos in a way that can be easily shared with other devices, we all want a way to easily read documents that people send us or that we download (MS Office / PDF / e-books), we all want to be able to keep up on the news (news sites, blogs, stocks, weather, etc), we all want to play games, and of course, we all want to be able to surf the web.
There are lots of other things, kinda "icing on the cake" stuff, that people would use if it was done right, especially a good camera that can do still photos and video, then upload these easily to user-defined location(s); GPS / mapping / location awareness stuff; presentation control; remote control of devices in your home; etc, etc.
We all want that stuff; the geeks will work to make it happen, non-geeks will give up quickly and return the device if it doesn't do what they want.
* EDIT: Please don't argue about this point. I'm as much of a tablet evangelist as anybody, but even I confess that the limitations are in-your-face obvious.
__________________
qole.org --- twitter --- Easy Debian wiki page
Please don't send me a private message, post to the appropriate thread.
Thank you all for your donations!
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Please don't send me a private message, post to the appropriate thread.
Thank you all for your donations!
Last edited by qole; 2008-11-04 at 20:25.
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2008-11-04
, 20:33
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Posts: 1,390 |
Thanked: 642 times |
Joined on Nov 2007
@ California USA
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#280
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qole - I totally agree. My N800 has taken me out from the restraints of the "back room" of my home and has allowed me to chat, check the weather, check the traffic, order pizza, and listen to music or a movie from any room in the house. Now I just need a model that will also replace my TV remote control!
__________________
N800 / Diablo / 16gb int / 16gb ext / Globalsat BT-359 gps ..... Dell Streak 5 - Android 2.2.2
N800 / Diablo / 16gb int / 16gb ext / Globalsat BT-359 gps ..... Dell Streak 5 - Android 2.2.2
Of course we look forward to the future, but it's natural that we are fearful about losing the things that make the current tablets desireable to us.