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2008-11-28
, 12:55
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Posts: 357 |
Thanked: 115 times |
Joined on Sep 2007
@ Sunny England :)
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#42
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Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles
if I log a software bug on my n800, and you tell me that it will be fixed if I buy an n900, then you ARE NOT fixing that bug for ME.
No, because that's not how Bugzilla works. Now, please, stop trying to make everybody's lives more difficult by breaking the system, thanks.
__________________
pixel - pushing buttons that shouldn't be pushed, and fiddling with things that shouldn't be fiddled with
pixel - pushing buttons that shouldn't be pushed, and fiddling with things that shouldn't be fiddled with
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2008-11-28
, 12:56
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Posts: 643 |
Thanked: 628 times |
Joined on Mar 2007
@ Seattle (or thereabouts)
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#43
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Well there's embedded in a marketing/product sense and embedded in a technical sense. From a technical point of view, talking about "embedded linux" is somewhat different than talking about most embedded operating systems that are designed to never be upgraded and live most of their lives running one application. From a marketing point-of-view the software is "embedded" into the hardware and those two things combined form the "product." In that sense this is different than your laptop, because the OS is not some separate product (note: it's even a separate product on Macs, since you can buy it separately from the computer).
And this brings me to my final thought of the day: Never expect a company to do *anything* for you after you make a purchase, except honor their warranty. Think like this and you'll never be disappointed.
Now, that said, I will be cranky with Nokia if they integrate hardware-3D-dependent libraries in such a way that makes it impossible to write applications that work on both fremantle and whatever part of fremantle can be made to run on the n8x0 or other devices without hardware 3D.
And this brings me to my final thought of the day: Never expect a company to do *anything* for you after you make a purchase, except honor their warranty. Think like this and you'll never be disappointed.
Now, that said, I will be cranky with Nokia if they integrate hardware-3D-dependent libraries in such a way that makes it impossible to write applications that work on both fremantle and whatever part of fremantle can be made to run on the n8x0 or other devices without hardware 3D.
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2008-11-28
, 14:04
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Posts: 114 |
Thanked: 50 times |
Joined on Oct 2006
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#44
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I'm also really upset by the way the bugs are closed. At least a WONTFIX would be more honest.
This way of closing bugs leads us to another problem. I just received this:
Ok, so it means
1) contacts application on my N8x0 will never be fixed. Sad, but I can deal with it.
2) I have no way to know if the contacts application is really fixed or if it'll come with some other design flaws. I mean, when you fix something you explain or show what you improved, else it's not fixed, it's maybe fixed.
3) We recently seen the bug of the GPS closed as fixed by nokia after the addition of AGPS-beta. We had to whine to have it reopened because AGPS clearly does not fix everything. If the "Fixed in Fremantle" fixes are the same kind of fixes, I really worry for Maemo.
And as long as nothing about these fixes is shown, I really don't understand how you can close the bugs.
The "Fixed in Fremantle" should appear when Fremantle is released, before, for me, nothing is fixed.
/rant too.
This way of closing bugs leads us to another problem. I just received this:
roope.rainisto@nokia.com changed:
What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CC| |roope.rainisto@nokia.com
Status|NEW |RESOLVED
Resolution| |FIXED
Target Milestone|--- |Fremantle
------- Comment #2 from roope.rainisto@nokia.com 2008-11-28 15:13 GMT+3 -------
Contacts application will be redesigned in Fremantle.
Ok, so it means
1) contacts application on my N8x0 will never be fixed. Sad, but I can deal with it.
2) I have no way to know if the contacts application is really fixed or if it'll come with some other design flaws. I mean, when you fix something you explain or show what you improved, else it's not fixed, it's maybe fixed.
3) We recently seen the bug of the GPS closed as fixed by nokia after the addition of AGPS-beta. We had to whine to have it reopened because AGPS clearly does not fix everything. If the "Fixed in Fremantle" fixes are the same kind of fixes, I really worry for Maemo.
And as long as nothing about these fixes is shown, I really don't understand how you can close the bugs.
The "Fixed in Fremantle" should appear when Fremantle is released, before, for me, nothing is fixed.
/rant too.
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2008-11-28
, 14:36
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Posts: 631 |
Thanked: 1,123 times |
Joined on Sep 2005
@ Helsinki
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#45
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Originally Posted by Boke
Hi. Since I was the one commenting on this bug, I'll comment also here:
I'm also really upset by the way the bugs are closed. At least a WONTFIX would be more honest.
This way of closing bugs leads us to another problem. I just received this:
Ok, so it means
1) contacts application on my N8x0 will never be fixed. Sad, but I can deal with it.
2) I have no way to know if the contacts application is really fixed or if it'll come with some other design flaws. I mean, when you fix something you explain or show what you improved, else it's not fixed, it's maybe fixed.
3) We recently seen the bug of the GPS closed as fixed by nokia after the addition of AGPS-beta. We had to whine to have it reopened because AGPS clearly does not fix everything. If the "Fixed in Fremantle" fixes are the same kind of fixes, I really worry for Maemo.
And as long as nothing about these fixes is shown, I really don't understand how you can close the bugs.
The "Fixed in Fremantle" should appear when Fremantle is released, before, for me, nothing is fixed.
/rant too.
For 2) and 3), "design flaws" is a very subjective statement. What one person thinks is good design another one thinks to be a flaw. In other words, there will always be design flaws, and every time a design is changed, some think it will be better, and others will think it will be worse. No change we do will ever fix everything. Fremantle will have an improved version of the application, it tries to address some of the failings of the previous design as well as hit some new targets. It won't be perfect, nothing is. I'm 100% sure people will find new bugs once Fremantle gets released, and that's all good.
Anyway, the bugs are not closed when setting Fixed in bugzilla. The next step from Fixed is to the bug reporter to check it - once this is possible - then either to Reopen the bug or then Verify it. Only then bugs are closed.
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2008-11-28
, 15:25
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Posts: 114 |
Thanked: 50 times |
Joined on Oct 2006
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#46
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Originally Posted by ragnar
I used this one as an example and since the bug was talking about the UI I talked about the design flaws for this one. I know that nothing is flawless, but I don't even know here if the bug we're talking about is properly fixed, unless I trust you blindly.
Hi. Since I was the one commenting on this bug, I'll comment also here:
For 2) and 3), "design flaws" is a very subjective statement. What one person thinks is good design another one thinks to be a flaw. In other words, there will always be design flaws, and every time a design is changed, some think it will be better, and others will think it will be worse. No change we do will ever fix everything.
I'm ok if it's a won't fix in diablo and you fix it in fremantle, but if it's fixed, I'd like to know how it's fixed.
I know you've got an NDA on it so you can't comment much, but then, what's the point of marking it as fixed?
Originally Posted by ragnar
I like to see Bugzilla as a collaborative tool shared by developpers and users to exchange their views on some software.
Fremantle will have an improved version of the application, it tries to address some of the failings of the previous design as well as hit some new targets. It won't be perfect, nothing is. I'm 100% sure people will find new bugs once Fremantle gets released, and that's all good.
Anyway, the bugs are not closed when setting Fixed in bugzilla. The next step from Fixed is to the bug reporter to check it - once this is possible - then either to Reopen the bug or then Verify it. Only then bugs are closed.
Marking bugs as RESOLVED without telling anyone what you did to resolve it doesn't seem much interesting to me. Now the bug is not in the OPEN state anymore. So noone is supposed to be working on it anymore, while it's not fixed in Diablo. And noone will bother working on it, since there is a fix, in Fremantle.
I don't know... maybe it's a massive bug hunt that nokia is doing... but I don't get the point of it.
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2008-11-28
, 15:41
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Posts: 3,105 |
Thanked: 11,088 times |
Joined on Jul 2007
@ Mountain View (CA, USA)
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#47
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I believe what we offer is near the best we can offer, considering all the conditions:
- Development needs to be focused in new releases because you want Maemo to be the great platform out there. There is a tough competition, high user expectations and little room between the Best and the Rest. People upset with 'wontfix in Diablo' would be even more upset if the whole Maemo project failed. A lot of the success/failure is decided on the battles you choose and the resources you put on each.
- Those saying "I want this fix in Diablo" actually want to say "I want this fix in my device". The goal is to bring the Fremantle fixes to your devices, then.
- Forget the PC/embedded dilemma. This is about x86/ARM, the adaptation required between OMAP versions and other hardware interfaces, the unstability of the mobile UI paradigms, the speed to market to bring the new stuff to real customers as soon as possible.
- Sure, some companies offer updates for their desktop software and they work a lot on compatibility. They also charge nice fees for the updates that, together with the volumes they have, convert compatibility into a business instead of a cost. As for today the Maemo business case is very different.
- Sure, the same companies provide also updates on their mobile OS and actually mostly "for free"... But their products are tied to smartphones and operator contracts. Have no doubt customers end up paying in one way or another for those updates as well. Again, as for today the Maemo business case is different.
In the meantime, my partner (read: a regular user) is mostly happy with the N810 and she hasn't updated at all because she doesn't feel an urgent need to do so.
Most users filing bugs and posting in threads like this one do care about fixes, new features and updates. You will have Fremantle in your hands, that's your real objective.
- Development needs to be focused in new releases because you want Maemo to be the great platform out there. There is a tough competition, high user expectations and little room between the Best and the Rest. People upset with 'wontfix in Diablo' would be even more upset if the whole Maemo project failed. A lot of the success/failure is decided on the battles you choose and the resources you put on each.
- Those saying "I want this fix in Diablo" actually want to say "I want this fix in my device". The goal is to bring the Fremantle fixes to your devices, then.
- Forget the PC/embedded dilemma. This is about x86/ARM, the adaptation required between OMAP versions and other hardware interfaces, the unstability of the mobile UI paradigms, the speed to market to bring the new stuff to real customers as soon as possible.
- Sure, some companies offer updates for their desktop software and they work a lot on compatibility. They also charge nice fees for the updates that, together with the volumes they have, convert compatibility into a business instead of a cost. As for today the Maemo business case is very different.
- Sure, the same companies provide also updates on their mobile OS and actually mostly "for free"... But their products are tied to smartphones and operator contracts. Have no doubt customers end up paying in one way or another for those updates as well. Again, as for today the Maemo business case is different.
In the meantime, my partner (read: a regular user) is mostly happy with the N810 and she hasn't updated at all because she doesn't feel an urgent need to do so.
Most users filing bugs and posting in threads like this one do care about fixes, new features and updates. You will have Fremantle in your hands, that's your real objective.
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2008-11-28
, 15:43
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Posts: 259 |
Thanked: 72 times |
Joined on Dec 2007
@ Halifax, NS
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#48
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Originally Posted by Johnx
Oh but we will. In a traditional closed-dev cycle, you can be pretty sure that the company is going to squeeze all the "value-add" out of a platform that was probably fairly expensive to develop in the first place.
And this brings me to my final thought of the day: Never expect a company to do *anything* for you after you make a purchase, except honor their warranty. Think like this and you'll never be disappointed.
(I guess the phone manufacturers are maybe the only exception to this rule, since they seem to dump their own products as soon as they can.)
We're actually expecting companies to do something for *themselves*. They have a real opportunity here with an open platform, and just don't seem to be noticing it.
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2008-11-28
, 15:48
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Posts: 3,790 |
Thanked: 5,718 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ Vienna, Austria
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#49
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OK, I know I was told to shut up and get lost, but I can't resist this one:
Originally Posted by qgil
Don't you find this deeply disturbing?
In the meantime, my partner (read: a regular user) is mostly happy with the N810 and she hasn't updated at all because she doesn't feel an urgent need to do so.
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2008-11-28
, 15:49
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Posts: 259 |
Thanked: 72 times |
Joined on Dec 2007
@ Halifax, NS
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#50
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Quim, there's this nifty organization out there called Debian. You should look it up someday.
Seriously, talk to them, they're doing all this stuff much better than you are - BECAUSE they've been through the whole iterative development, compatibility, testing, FREE (libre) releases for what, 15 years now? They know what doesn't work.
Please don't reinvent the wheel, or even pretend you're the first down this road.
Seriously, talk to them, they're doing all this stuff much better than you are - BECAUSE they've been through the whole iterative development, compatibility, testing, FREE (libre) releases for what, 15 years now? They know what doesn't work.
Please don't reinvent the wheel, or even pretend you're the first down this road.
That Nokia uses a software update model ("push everything to a full future release, unless it's a fatal problem") is simply a choice of theirs, presumably because they're _used_ to that kind of model. Phones _are_ embedded devices.
There's nothing much different from Nokia's software and 3party software, except that Nokia's software tend to be closed. The 3party developers don't seem to have any problems whatsoever to follow a perfectly normal model (normal for desktop systems, that is) of providing fixes and updates all the time, not pushing to some future major release.
N800/OS2007|N900/Maemo5
-- Metalayer-crawler delenda est.
-- Current state: Fed up with everything MeeGo.