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2008-12-01
, 02:03
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#102
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Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles
They're just going to have to show me some proof of how much they believe in anything. So far, I'm two devices deep in disappointment. And complaining to their customer channels has gotten me a refurbished, badly flashed 770 with more scuff marks than my original, nearly new version I had sent them. But... after some time with it, it's still ticking. I did what they were unwilling to do... provide proper support.
See, but the people at Nokia who see this site don't need to be convinced—hey're already believers. The people who actually need to be convinced don't read itT. That's why it'll be more productive to take your complaining to customer channels where they're more likely to be paying attention. If you want to wear the customer hat, you need to go through customer channels.
I don't think you got what I said in the least, to be honest. I'll just kindly request that you go back and re-read it. I didn't use overly complex words nor structure on purpose. Simply stated, the community would like to make a grievance and request to be known... we'd like to remain supported in a manner that doesn't leave a 11 month purchase turn into a regret. That would mean that it would be nice, before the decision is made, that future iterations (where possible) would receive proper openness and support by the community; instead of the (seemingly) one-man show that was the Hacker Editions.
Sadly that's rarely the case, and it's certainly not the case in this particular thread as it's already started. Mostly it simply ends in flames, or it ends in people saying they're gonna do something productive, but nobody actually does (trust me, I've seen most of them).
I'd suggest both be taken serious by all.
qgil said it himself right here in this very thread, I'm not sure what there's not to believe. Nokia's certainly expressed their willingness to work with us.
One opinion in a leviathan does not make me a believer; however I'll remain patient and open-minded.
Thanks for the kind conversation. I enjoy this better than the alternative
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2008-12-01
, 04:37
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Posts: 643 |
Thanked: 628 times |
Joined on Mar 2007
@ Seattle (or thereabouts)
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#103
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Originally Posted by gerbick
No, things started a while ago. Lots of people, inside and outside Nokia have been pushing to make a community supported distribution possible. If things change it will be because people communicate in a calm, rational way and collaborate to make change possible, not because someone complained on a message board.
It starts with finding out if you are alone in that regard. Read the thread... if something were started now, I'm sure people will start to support that endeavor. And to think... it all started with one disgruntled post.
Originally Posted by gerbick
Major feature upgrades aren't quite the same as "support." Your warranty is still valid, and I'm sure they'll answer customer support calls. Nokia isn't the best in terms of supplying new software releases for old devices, but they're certainly not the worst. On the other hand, you sent them the wrong message by spending money on an N810 after getting burned when they stopped supporting the 770.
We. If you were a Nokia employee, I'd believe what you said. I don't think that you fully represent the forum. I know that I do not.
There is no we in "disgruntled". There is no excuse to have, in my case, a 770 and N810 - which I had the 770 for under a year before it was sent to Nokia 8 times. The N810, I've not had for even a year, and I'm now looking at the same situation as my 770; it feels the same at least that I will not be supported.
That's two years, two devices, some $600.00 USD that's being thrown away because... well, "We have a better platform..." mantra from Nokia. I can't keep wasting like that, putting LCD's into a landfill. Or spending a lot of money only to find my options with other devices is... well, just that much better in terms of long-term support. And trade-ins... a joke. If I see incentives that match my devotion to these devices, I'll bite. So far, definitely not the case.
Originally Posted by gerbick
We are the community! You and me. Some of us are stepping up and looking at ways to get Fremantle on the N8x0 devices (hey, maybe some parts will run on the 770 even!). But the more people helping, the better. Nokia gave us the tools to help ourselves this time, and if we don't take advantage of those tools, I don't see this happening again. It's time for the community to step up and prove that supporting Open Source makes sense for a company.
That's why I turn to this community.
Seriously. That's what is being overlooked. Owners will start to feel shafted if there is not a community to support the devices after they're "run their course"... albeit in this case, very short runs.
Originally Posted by gerbick
I understand where you're coming from, but it really illustrates a difference in being beholden to a commercial entity (Adobe's Flex) and having the possibility of taking things into your own hands (Nokia's Maemo). When people say "just deal with it" on this board they're (for the most part
I just am glad that the Adobe Flex community supports me when I rant, rave, commiserate, fuss at Adobe - I have a nigh-feud with two developers, a friendly one though - or laugh at how my fixes are always upcoming.
To me, this is the same. And I'd be real upset if I got a blanket statement of "just deal with it". I'd be livid because I know how much I've invested and that doesn't make me feel good at all.
) not saying "Shut up and take it," they're saying "Let's fix it!"
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2008-12-01
, 06:19
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#104
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Originally Posted by Johnx
I guess the parts where I said that I agreed that it's not the best way to get things done were overlooked - I'm not for a community filled with flames nor bad attitudes at all; nor do I wish to contribute to that. But it's also a way that things have gotten done.
No, things started a while ago. Lots of people, inside and outside Nokia have been pushing to make a community supported distribution possible. If things change it will be because people communicate in a calm, rational way and collaborate to make change possible, not because someone complained on a message board.
The insides/outside discussion that's happening at Nokia; I'll wait to see what happens. If nothing; then expect truly disgruntled people - with praise for a past platform in tow.
If something good actually happens, expect happier people - with complaints in tow still perhaps.
Major feature upgrades aren't quite the same as "support."
Your warranty is still valid, and I'm sure they'll answer customer support calls. Nokia isn't the best in terms of supplying new software releases for old devices, but they're certainly not the worst.
On the other hand, you sent them the wrong message by spending money on an N810 after getting burned when they stopped supporting the 770.
We are the community! You and me. Some of us are stepping up and looking at ways to get Fremantle on the N8x0 devices (hey, maybe some parts will run on the 770 even!). But the more people helping, the better. Nokia gave us the tools to help ourselves this time, and if we don't take advantage of those tools, I don't see this happening again. It's time for the community to step up and prove that supporting Open Source makes sense for a company.
I understand where you're coming from, but it really illustrates a difference in being beholden to a commercial entity (Adobe's Flex) and having the possibility of taking things into your own hands (Nokia's Maemo). When people say "just deal with it" on this board they're (for the most part
I'm still learning about Mer and the other offerings. Even waiting on Android on the 770 perhaps - which is still my preferred internet tablet.
Thanks for the wise words.
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2008-12-01
, 11:43
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Posts: 1,665 |
Thanked: 1,649 times |
Joined on Jun 2008
@ Praha, Czech Republic
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#105
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Why do such discussion always rise when I'm completely offline for a long weekend?
From a quick readthrough, most things have been explained already in this thread. Just picking up a small issue:
From a quick readthrough, most things have been explained already in this thread. Just picking up a small issue:
Originally Posted by Jaffa
Correct. That's what we also have the wiki for... I've now described the current situation of RESOLVED FIXED state at https://wiki.maemo.org/Bugsquad and of course it's open for discussion to improve, e.g. here or on the maemo-community mailing list (the latter I will definitely not miss).
To be fair, this has only relatively recently been decided, and if there's consensus on an even better process, nothing should stop it from being adopted.
Originally Posted by Jaffa
I assume you only refer to enhancement requests here?
Perhaps a modification of the "target" milestone would help. Ideally, of course, the issue would be assigned to the appropriate designer/developer/reviewer/architect to act as a master for the development. It would then be updated with specs and assigned through the development workflow, finally being FIXED when the code is committed to some repository somewhere (hopefully a publicly visible one).
Originally Posted by Jaffa
At least for bugs I'd say: Basically because it adds noise if keeping them in open state. Querying for bugs in FIXED state and with Target Milestone == Fremantle set shows up those bugs and removes the noise when taking a look at open requests that still need to be handled.
Failing that, what about keeping them open and assigned to "fremantle@maemo.bugs", again until some (internal) build of the software meets the requirement as outlined.
__________________
maemo.org Bugmaster
maemo.org Bugmaster
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2008-12-01
, 16:52
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Posts: 3,220 |
Thanked: 326 times |
Joined on Oct 2005
@ "Almost there!" (Monte Christo, Count of)
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#106
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This entire discussion is a bit pointless: Of course Nokia isn't going to fix the remaining bugs in OS2008; they need you to all buy the new tablet when (if) it comes out, especially in their current eroding market position.
The situation will be exactly the same as with the 770 to N800 transition: If you want the new features, you're going to have to give cash to Nokia. Eventually a crippled version of the new software, so-called "community developed", will make it to the N8x0, but it will only work to the extent that it will make you crave for the new device.
It's just how Nokia works. It's not as if, because they're throwing "open source" and "community" around, that they've suddenly changed their MO. Just look at them as a company that wants your money, don't pay attention to the buzzwords and the fanboi spinning and consider this: "Knowing what I know about how they've done things re the tablets since 2005, are they still worthy of my cash?"
And please, don't make the mistake of assuming Nokia is interested in or furthering the open source community, because they aren't. Or, to be more precise, they're only interested in a community that brings them profit.
In view of this, IMO the only mistake Nokia has made is in putting the launch date of the new tablet so far ahead (summer '09, which most likely will translate in to Q409) and already starting the covert "no more bugfixes" operation. I'm sure someone inside is by now really p*ssed off that people have started seeing through the "fixed in Fremantle" hussle so soon, so maybe there's a possibility of a few token fixes down the line. So keep your hopes up
The situation will be exactly the same as with the 770 to N800 transition: If you want the new features, you're going to have to give cash to Nokia. Eventually a crippled version of the new software, so-called "community developed", will make it to the N8x0, but it will only work to the extent that it will make you crave for the new device.
It's just how Nokia works. It's not as if, because they're throwing "open source" and "community" around, that they've suddenly changed their MO. Just look at them as a company that wants your money, don't pay attention to the buzzwords and the fanboi spinning and consider this: "Knowing what I know about how they've done things re the tablets since 2005, are they still worthy of my cash?"
And please, don't make the mistake of assuming Nokia is interested in or furthering the open source community, because they aren't. Or, to be more precise, they're only interested in a community that brings them profit.
In view of this, IMO the only mistake Nokia has made is in putting the launch date of the new tablet so far ahead (summer '09, which most likely will translate in to Q409) and already starting the covert "no more bugfixes" operation. I'm sure someone inside is by now really p*ssed off that people have started seeing through the "fixed in Fremantle" hussle so soon, so maybe there's a possibility of a few token fixes down the line. So keep your hopes up
__________________
Watch out Nokia, Pandora's box has opened (sorta)...
I do love explaining cryptic sigs, but for the impatient: http://www.openpandora.org/
Watch out Nokia, Pandora's box has opened (sorta)...
I do love explaining cryptic sigs, but for the impatient: http://www.openpandora.org/
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2008-12-01
, 17:20
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Posts: 2,102 |
Thanked: 1,309 times |
Joined on Sep 2006
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#107
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Eventually a crippled version of the new software, so-called "community developed", will make it to the N8x0, but it will only work to the extent that it will make you crave for the new device.
don't pay attention to the buzzwords and the fanboi spinning and consider this: "Knowing what I know about how they've done things re the tablets since 2005, are they still worthy of my cash?"
And please, don't make the mistake of assuming Nokia is interested in or furthering the open source community, because they aren't. Or, to be more precise, they're only interested in a community that brings them profit.
In view of this, IMO the only mistake Nokia has made is in putting the launch date of the new tablet so far ahead (summer '09, which most likely will translate in to Q409) and already starting the covert "no more bugfixes" operation.
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2008-12-01
, 17:31
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Posts: 225 |
Thanked: 68 times |
Joined on Feb 2006
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#108
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Nokia are a company, not a charity. Of course they want our money.
Are they still WORTHY of our money? what a strange thing to ask. well, both the 770 and 800 have worked for me, so I guess the new one probably will too.
Hardware moves on. I wouldn't expect to run some new software on the pentium I had ten years ago. Having said that, I still use old software on one machine just because it does what I want and I like it.
My 800 does what it does when I bought it, somethings it does a bit quicker and 'better' now. That's good.
If I have the moeny and the next device looks good, I'll buy it.
simple.
And for a personel question to Karel, it is obvious from posts here that you are interested in the Pandora product, but do you have a business interest in it? It's really none of MY buisiness, but I it may influence the way I read yor posts if i knew the answer.
Are they still WORTHY of our money? what a strange thing to ask. well, both the 770 and 800 have worked for me, so I guess the new one probably will too.
Hardware moves on. I wouldn't expect to run some new software on the pentium I had ten years ago. Having said that, I still use old software on one machine just because it does what I want and I like it.
My 800 does what it does when I bought it, somethings it does a bit quicker and 'better' now. That's good.
If I have the moeny and the next device looks good, I'll buy it.
simple.
And for a personel question to Karel, it is obvious from posts here that you are interested in the Pandora product, but do you have a business interest in it? It's really none of MY buisiness, but I it may influence the way I read yor posts if i knew the answer.
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2008-12-01
, 17:47
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#109
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Originally Posted by qgil
Since I was in the middle of that fire, I have to say no, they didn't welcome it. To put it mildly.
Don't you think that no matter how upset they were at the time, most 770 users welcomed the new software and hardware since they marked clear steps forward?
Many people who bought 770s were very happy with it in many ways, and had no desire to move up to N800s or N810s. To them the new developments did not represent a way forward so much as a way sideways.
The hardcore 770 owners (and they are legion) saw the break as a slap in the face, and despite the good intentions wrought by hacker editions it truly was a public relations fiasco, Quim. Something we really, really need to avoid repeating... and tossing Molotov platitudes at the fire is not the solution!
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2008-12-01
, 17:49
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#110
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Originally Posted by Karel Jansens
Not at all.
This entire discussion is a bit pointless: Of course Nokia isn't going to fix the remaining bugs in OS2008; they need you to all buy the new tablet when (if) it comes out, especially in their current eroding market position.
Better than most, Nokia will ride out the crisis, and regardless will not depend on the sales of one niche device to prevent financial damage.
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Ryan Abel