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ragnar is offline ragnar
2009-01-11 , 19:17
Posts: 631 | Thanked: 1,123 times | Joined on Sep 2005 @ Helsinki
#191
Originally Posted by Bundyo View Post
Nah, you're pnot taking into account a number of usages you're so accustomed with that you'll know they're missing when they're actually gone. I meant d-pad for navigating INSIDE the input field. I don't want to delete 5 letters to type 6, right? How will the iPhone zoom loupe help me with that?

And you probably mean that we should only play strategies from now on on the next devices. Quake is not suitable for touch screen, refer to Tomb Raider for WM5 devices and they actually using some keys too .
For text input there are multiple strategies, depending on whether a device has a hardware qwerty keyboard or not, and if such device has cursor keys on the keyboard or not. If there is a HW qwerty keyboard with cursor keys on the keyboard, problem solved. If there is a HW qwerty with no separate cursor keys, then you can for instance temporarily embed and display cursor keys (or a similar mechanism) on screen whilst the user is typing on a text field. If no HW qwerty, you can do the same kind of embedding (or similar mechanism).

For gaming I don't really see the issue. It's impossible to say that all games would be perfect on any device. Depending on what the configuration of a device is like, there are games that are more suitable and some that are less suitable. People pick and developers hopely develop games that suit a device well.
 
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daperl is offline daperl
2009-01-11 , 19:21
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#192
Bad generalization #2754:

This is all Nokia's fault. What I'm noticing here is that all the n810 users that never owned a 770 or n800 don't know what it's like to have the d-pad on the outside. Of course they want touch screen crap; they're deprived. Shame on you Nokia. You've splintered the community. Now make it all better. I'll give you till June. Maybe July.
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ragnar is offline ragnar
2009-01-11 , 19:24
Posts: 631 | Thanked: 1,123 times | Joined on Sep 2005 @ Helsinki
#193
Originally Posted by SD69 View Post
Thank you for your good and persuasive comments. But they imply that the case for a D-pad is entirely its use as a focus element in UI or navigation. The D-pad can be used for a variety of functions, some as simple as vertical scrolling and some of which have yet to be conceived, but not available if it is absent from the device. It also seems inconsistent with the open nature of the device and the years of engaging an open source community to remove the existing HW keys that have been present for years over the objection of the open source community.
To take a stupid analogy, if you have a hammer, you will find plenty of things that look like nails. If you bolt a hammer on the side of the device, you would get frustrated if there wouldn't be nails to hit.

Then again, I'm arguing here in generalities. The N810 has no D-pad on the front cover. Any future device might or might not have such a key.

For instance the Palm Pre skips the D-pad with a separate touch scrolling and gesture area, giving capabilities like page up/down, launching new items etc. All very nice. The touch pad a nice idea because if there is nothing else for it to do, it does (afaik) exactly the same thing as another parts of the touch screen. Meaning that there are no extra functions the designers have to invent just for functions sake.
 
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2009-01-11 , 20:02
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#194
ragnar, you're working awfully hard to argue against something that many users highly desire. Why?

(note: I am on record here as saying I didn't see relocation of the d-pad on the N810 as a showstopper)
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benny1967 is offline benny1967
2009-01-11 , 20:08
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#195
Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
If you take Fennec into account, you don't have to use the dpad there. You use your fingers to navigate through the application.
... and this example shows how much easier scrolling is with a d-pad when implemented properly. (especially when you take into account that scrolling with d-pad can be done one-handed, while i never got anything touch-related to work without using a second hand.)
Last edited by benny1967; 2009-01-11 at 20:12.
 

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Texrat is offline Texrat
2009-01-11 , 20:11
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#196
To me one of the strongest arguments against 100% touch is the reduced lifespan of the overall product. With even normal usage, (at least parts of) the touchscreen will wear out long before the device in toto ceases to be useful.

So IMO the inclusion of some sort of additional hardware input device, regardless of form, is important-- and its open configurability paramount.
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Last edited by Texrat; 2009-01-11 at 20:15.
 

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SD69 is offline SD69
2009-01-11 , 20:13
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#197
Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
To take a stupid analogy, if you have a hammer, you will find plenty of things that look like nails. If you bolt a hammer on the side of the device, you would get frustrated if there wouldn't be nails to hit.

Then again, I'm arguing here in generalities. The N810 has no D-pad on the front cover. Any future device might or might not have such a key.

For instance the Palm Pre skips the D-pad with a separate touch scrolling and gesture area, giving capabilities like page up/down, launching new items etc. All very nice. The touch pad a nice idea because if there is nothing else for it to do, it does (afaik) exactly the same thing as another parts of the touch screen. Meaning that there are no extra functions the designers have to invent just for functions sake.
I think there are plenty of present and future uses for the D-pad if it is present.

In addition to the demonstrated Palm Pre, there is already a MID shipping with a separate gesture area for zooming. If replacing the D-pad with an improved off-screen HW element, it should at least be equivalent functionally and appear exactly the same way in the SW stack for at least apps developers. When we talk about about a HW "key", I think we are referring to an offscreen HW element manipulatable with one finger without covering up the display. For example, you referred to the Apple UI, but zooming is carried out by multi-touch of the display itself. I do prefer the Palm Pre to that.
 

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ragnar is offline ragnar
2009-01-11 , 20:21
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#198
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
ragnar, you're working awfully hard to argue against something that many users highly desire. Why?

(note: I am on record here as saying I didn't see relocation of the d-pad on the N810 as a showstopper)
I would argue that the vast majority of the users do not really desire the D-pad (the sample size and correlation to a typical user in here isn't exactly optimal), providing they get an UI that is well optimized for touch. And that having to support the D-pad would make reaching that goal much harder.

That's basically why I'm arguing. Having it is not a free lunch. It may seem like it now, but that's only because of the current UI. It's not about just desiging a good HW design for one - or why not go the Pandora-route and two - d-pads. Requiring it makes things worse in many aspects.
 

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ragnar is offline ragnar
2009-01-11 , 20:22
Posts: 631 | Thanked: 1,123 times | Joined on Sep 2005 @ Helsinki
#199
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
To me one of the strongest arguments against 100% touch is the reduced lifespan of the overall product. With even normal usage, (at least parts of) the touchscreen will wear out long before the device in toto ceases to be useful.

So IMO the inclusion of some sort of additional hardware input device, regardless of form, is important-- and its open configurability paramount.
I would consider the device broken if the touch screen stops working. It's not like the space shuttle where you should have backup systems for everything if one system stops working.
 
doubledee is offline doubledee
2009-01-11 , 20:23
Posts: 14 | Thanked: 4 times | Joined on Sep 2008
#200
Originally Posted by SD69 View Post
Thank you for your good and persuasive comments. But they imply that the case for a D-pad is entirely its use as a focus element in UI or navigation. The D-pad can be used for a variety of functions, some as simple as vertical scrolling and some of which have yet to be conceived, but not available if it is absent from the device. It also seems inconsistent with the open nature of the device and the years of engaging an open source community to remove the existing HW keys that have been present for years over the objection of the open source community.
Here here!
 
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