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GeraldKo |
2009-06-06
, 01:52
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Posts: 1,950 |
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Joined on Jan 2008
@ Seattle, USA
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#31
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Originally Posted by attila77
In light of what you're saying here and my post #25, do you think there is any hope of a maemo device ever becoming a mass-market success?
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2009-06-06
, 02:25
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Posts: 3,319 |
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Joined on Aug 2008
@ Finland
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#32
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Depends on the term mass-market success, of course, but generally speaking, in today's market, no (this being my strictly personal opinion everybody is welcome to (dis)agree with). However, a slow shift in business models (which are long overdue in some indrustry branches) just may make it a mass-market success in a rhethorical tomorrow - like it happened before with linux on the server market. This change, however, won't happen overnight. Remember, there have been loads of Linux phones/MIDs out on the market - it's just that they were never marketed as such. It also needs support of some key players in the field. Enter Nokia with Maemo (or, I must mention, Google with Android), which gives the oft-spoken about potential to really push stuff mainstream. Reminds me a bit of IBM and their Linux transition/adoption.
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2009-06-06
, 04:31
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Posts: 1,950 |
Thanked: 1,174 times |
Joined on Jan 2008
@ Seattle, USA
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#33
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Originally Posted by attila77
Response A: It seems it would take some IMMENSE market changes. IBM can make lots of money off of hardware and services; Google can make money off advertising. Unless they manage to slip in (or except when they can manage to slip in) advertising sufficient to make the money they would like, content providers are going to be mighty resistant to doing something like IBM did. Or else there would have to be a market change so huge it exceeds my imagination.
Depends on the term mass-market success, of course, but generally speaking, in today's market, no (this being my strictly personal opinion everybody is welcome to (dis)agree with). However, a slow shift in business models (which are long overdue in some indrustry branches) just may make it a mass-market success in a rhethorical tomorrow - like it happened before with linux on the server market. This change, however, won't happen overnight. Remember, there have been loads of Linux phones/MIDs out on the market - it's just that they were never marketed as such. It also needs support of some key players in the field. Enter Nokia with Maemo (or, I must mention, Google with Android), which gives the oft-spoken about potential to really push stuff mainstream. Reminds me a bit of IBM and their Linux transition/adoption.
Response B: It seems to me that you would predict there will be no DRM clients offered by content providers to Android. (I don't understand the intricacies of how Android is not as open as Maemo, but apart from that ...) Yes?
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2009-06-06
, 05:42
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Moderator |
Posts: 7,109 |
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Joined on Oct 2007
@ Vancouver, BC, Canada
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#34
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Just want to point out that the Hantro GStreamer video encoder plugin on the tablet is already closed, and Nokia did deals with Skype and Adobe for the tablets...
It wouldn't be a particularly big deal to put a couple of closed DRM media player plugins into the mix. They might have to make it closed 'all the way to the speakers / screen', but I really don't believe there'd be outrage in the community over it. Those who don't like it wouldn't use it.
It wouldn't be a particularly big deal to put a couple of closed DRM media player plugins into the mix. They might have to make it closed 'all the way to the speakers / screen', but I really don't believe there'd be outrage in the community over it. Those who don't like it wouldn't use it.
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2009-06-06
, 05:54
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Posts: 36 |
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Joined on Apr 2008
@ London
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#35
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Originally Posted by lemmyslender
Yes, but the "but"s are everywhere. Manufacturers/marketers just don't mention them. I could write a list of questions that need to be answered with "yes but" for any popular handheld device.
Most typical (ordinary user) friends ask questions such as:
Can I get my email/work email: Yes, but......
Can I download and read a book: Yes, but......
Can I download music and listen to it: Yes, but......
Can I download a video and watch it: Yes, but...
Can I get directions: Yes, but....
Can I browse the web: Yes...
Despite the current hardware or future hardware, the software is the problem. Most users are conditioned to expect it to work. I think that there are to many "buts" for the average user to consider a Maemo device. A couple of my friends would be able to use it, most would not, a couple wouldn't talk to me after recommending one.
That being said, I wouldn't recommend a Nokia tablet to people unlike me at this point; and I'm not sure about its suitability to my needs these days.
At the risk of going off on a bit of a rant, I don't understand where Nokia is positioning the tablets. Quite frankly, I'm not sure if they understand it themselves.
The NIT is not a consumer grade device. You could say it's lost that battle by including the stylus, but that's a bit of an oversimplification. The default media player on the N800 (and N810 I believe) doesn't support scanning contents of a memory card. You have to browse the directory structure and pick the file. Or you could install a shinier, nicer media player like Canola, except this requires adding a repository... wait adding a what? If not having decent software out of the box won't kill a device in this market, not having an extremely easy way to install things will.
The NIT is not a professional grade device. Lack of email and sync rules it out immediately.
The NIT is not really a tech enthusiast device. I think (and this is subjective) that Nokia tried this angle, but failed at it due to being too Nokia. I think of situations like not letting screen rotation into core Diablo despite being provided with ready-made code because "that's in the next version already". Well that's all nice and dandy, but I don't think at the point when I read through that story we knew whether the new version would run on existing hardware. Even now, it's the middle of 2009 and as far as I know I still have to find and install a recompiled kernel to be able to use a button to do something the hardware supports since 2006. And no one but Nokia can change this. Seriously? I mean, I like to tinker, and I absolutely understand why a corporation would make that decision from a software engineering point of view, but this is far from the only situation where I thought "Nokia just doesn't get it".
This is like closed-source graphics drivers in Linux; they work, unless they don't. At that point, everything that makes the idea of closed-source graphics drivers in an open-source environment a good thing goes out the window, and you're left with a massive fail as you lose the benefits of the open source while keeping the bad things about closed drivers. Maemo and the tablets never contest the Apple-like benefits of a closed, integrated development method, and yet Nokia still wields the sword above the OS's head as we get to deal with outcomes of them having to care about warranty for bricked devices.
There are a couple of specific niche uses. Maemo Mapper is pretty spectacular and makes me want to punch things when Google Mobile Maps redownloads a map of the area around my house for the tenth time. The inclusion of an SSH client with a useful keyboard makes one's life absolutely great if they have a use for it and can deal with a 480 px tall screen. Coupled with a bt keyboard, it makes for a pretty mean, portable note-making machine. If a 4" screen is your thing, it's a nice solution to movie-watching on a plane. But were these envisioned, or did they merely happen? Was the hardware and the software and the idea of the product shaped by some master plan?
(For the record, I use all of the above except for the movies - but if my N800 was to die tomorrow, would I line up for an N810 or wait for an N900, or grin and deal it in other ways? I shouldn't even ask this question to myself, let alone aloud, if Nokia wants a healthy product.)
I don't know: what is Nokia marketing the tablets as these days? Is it an internet gateway that takes a minute to load up Facebook and which has to wait until the whole Youtube video is cached before it can playback? A media player that can't index files on a memory card and that doesn't come with a CD that will install a movie converter on the user's desktop? A device for the geeks that doesn't support USB OTG out of the box? A messaging device without cellular? (And don't tell me about wifi. Being connected everywhere without having to look for an available network is brilliant.)
Does Nokia have a unifying vision for the N900, and if they do, why aren't they sharing it with everyone that will listen? If not, why do they bother; is the technology expertise being developed that valuable?
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2009-06-06
, 10:57
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Posts: 3,319 |
Thanked: 5,610 times |
Joined on Aug 2008
@ Finland
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#36
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Originally Posted by GeraldKo
Yes, I'm aware the changes would need to be big. But then again, iTunes itself was a major shift from the standpoint that mp3 is the devil's work. Again, think about Nokia - they ARE hardware and services (trying not underestimating various other departments there, but still). This means that they actually have a choice - they CAN become something like a content provider because it's not their root business. Think about Qt and LPGL licensing. I'm not sure that Nokia was the only or major reason for that switch, but it was a step FAR easier for Trolltech to make as part of Nokia when they knew that the loss of direct income can be offset by a larger market acceptance in another department.
Response A: It seems it would take some IMMENSE market changes. IBM can make lots of money off of hardware and services; Google can make money off advertising. Unless they manage to slip in (or except when they can manage to slip in) advertising sufficient to make the money they would like, content providers are going to be mighty resistant to doing something like IBM did.
Response B: It seems to me that you would predict there will be no DRM clients offered by content providers to Android. (I don't understand the intricacies of how Android is not as open as Maemo, but apart from that ...) Yes?
Originally Posted by qole
Qole. After all this time here you seriously think there would be no outrage ? It wouldn't be a particularly big deal to put a couple of closed DRM media player plugins into the mix. They might have to make it closed 'all the way to the speakers / screen', but I really don't believe there'd be outrage in the community over it. Those who don't like it wouldn't use it.
Granted, it would more likely be a small percentage who would do the shouting, a larger percentage who wouldn't care and would just leave it be, and of course those who actually welcome it. As for closing it down... I have reservations that it wouldn't get hacked. While we already have closed drivers and parts in Maemo, the trend is doing away with them, not reintroducing more. Also, with content, the Motivation To Hack (I know, not exactly a scientific measure 
) is much higher than with a random system component.
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2009-06-06
, 12:27
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Posts: 1,101 |
Thanked: 1,184 times |
Joined on Aug 2008
@ Spain
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#37
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Originally Posted by dickcheney
Have you ever heard of dvdjohn and decss? He solved that problem.
Uhm, have you ever played a DVD? Or is your freedom so pure you don't watch those?
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2009-06-06
, 17:43
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Posts: 3,397 |
Thanked: 1,212 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
@ Netherlands
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#38
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Originally Posted by attila77
Not just DRM. Making locked up software on a platform like Linux is just a pain. You'd have to check and verify all distribution/CPU platforms (as you can't trust the community to do this for you). This in itself is one of the major reasons proprietary vendors don't go linux. It's too small of a market, requires too much effort, and in the end, you will be pi**ed upon because you're not open. Also, the developer-to-user ratio in linux is abnormally large compared to windows land and the LIKE to hack and make/break stuff. Sending in a DRM piece of software in there is just putting their heads in the lion's jaws - and to make matters worse, a DRM crack could then potentially be used in other, more 'accepting' and benign platforms.
This applies to kindle on Windows. Actually, the one that makes sense here is Windows Mobile. Largest user base, used to micropayments, small number of hackers compared to the nomber users... Why bother with linux if you can go to such a market ? There are simply largely incompatible business models at play, and that's why DRM doesn't fit open platforms. Remember, you you want the content, not DRM per se. It's just that the publisher is forcing you through DRM hoops as it is part of it's business model.
Originally Posted by attila77
We had that too on Amiga, IRIX, and what not. We had modchips for consoles. It has always been easy to pirate software and crack software no matter if what is used FlexLM or SecureROM or whatever. It gets harder if the user is not in control of the hardware; but not impossible. Because if you have physical access to the hardware it is just a matter of time and dedication. So it was cracked, and it will always be cracked.
Not just DRM. Making locked up software on a platform like Linux is just a pain. You'd have to check and verify all distribution/CPU platforms (as you can't trust the community to do this for you). This in itself is one of the major reasons proprietary vendors don't go linux. It's too small of a market, requires too much effort, and in the end, you will be pi**ed upon because you're not open. Also, the developer-to-user ratio in linux is abnormally large compared to windows land and the LIKE to hack and make/break stuff. Sending in a DRM piece of software in there is just putting their heads in the lion's jaws - and to make matters worse, a DRM crack could then potentially be used in other, more 'accepting' and benign platforms.
This applies to kindle on Windows. Actually, the one that makes sense here is Windows Mobile. Largest user base, used to micropayments, small number of hackers compared to the nomber users... Why bother with linux if you can go to such a market ? There are simply largely incompatible business models at play, and that's why DRM doesn't fit open platforms. Remember, you you want the content, not DRM per se. It's just that the publisher is forcing you through DRM hoops as it is part of it's business model.
DRM, registration keys, pirate hunting are made to make it harder to pirate, so that its not worth the time and effort. A slick interface to buy a product (such as iTunes) or central market place (such as eBay) and central, instant ways of payment (credit card, PayPal) save time and effort because payment works after 1-time user setup, downloading simply works, searching central repository, installation goes transparantly. Meanwhile, yuo don't want to piss off your customers, so you allow them to play their pirated or unDRMed MP3.
One thing which goes beyond this is something such as subscription services such as online games like WoW. As you and I know this game is popular, even though there is a monthly fee. There is a Linux server for this game, but not a Linux client, while there are Windows and OSX clients. Why not? Market demand, as simple as that. You see the same with open source business models; there is simply market demand for the ability to do in house development while still able to buy commercial support. There is tons of proprietary and commercial software available for Linux as well. Countless examples exist. Embedded, such as TiVo, NIT, TomTom, Sat. Receivers, Cars. And proprietary software is rampant on Linux as well. In fact, any website running Linux kernel with closed source software (e.g. PHP) on their server which you access with a web browser could be seen as proprietary software. It works just fine, right?
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2009-06-06
, 20:21
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Posts: 2,355 |
Thanked: 5,249 times |
Joined on Jan 2009
@ Barcelona
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#39
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What ecosystem is the one you're talking about?
I only see a few monopolies & big companies (Apple, Amazon, ..) mentioned, not a thriving ecosystem at all. In fact, I believe there's a much greater "ecosystem" around Gnome/Maemo than around the iPhone & "the iPhone clone army" -- e.g. I can open way more formats in my Maemo device (yet I agree maybe the most useless ones from a "average Joe" point of view).
I only see a few monopolies & big companies (Apple, Amazon, ..) mentioned, not a thriving ecosystem at all. In fact, I believe there's a much greater "ecosystem" around Gnome/Maemo than around the iPhone & "the iPhone clone army" -- e.g. I can open way more formats in my Maemo device (yet I agree maybe the most useless ones from a "average Joe" point of view).
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2009-06-07
, 03:50
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Posts: 36 |
Thanked: 15 times |
Joined on Apr 2008
@ London
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#40
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Originally Posted by allnameswereout
Just a note, PHP is open source, both the language itself and the main implementation, Zend Engine.
There is tons of proprietary and commercial software available for Linux as well. Countless examples exist. Embedded, such as TiVo, NIT, TomTom, Sat. Receivers, Cars. And proprietary software is rampant on Linux as well. In fact, any website running Linux kernel with closed source software (e.g. PHP) on their server which you access with a web browser could be seen as proprietary software. It works just fine, right?
Originally Posted by javispedro
When talking about "the ecosystem" for mobile platform, the prevalent meaning recently is the availability of third party software. (Edit: And, by extension, platform maintainer's support for creation, distribution, etc, of said software.) This has been widely noted, fairly or not, to be Apple's particular strength.
What ecosystem is the one you're talking about?
I only see a few monopolies & big companies (Apple, Amazon, ..) mentioned, not a thriving ecosystem at all. In fact, I believe there's a much greater "ecosystem" around Gnome/Maemo than around the iPhone & "the iPhone clone army" -- e.g. I can open way more formats in my Maemo device (yet I agree maybe the most useless ones from a "average Joe" point of view).
The issues at hand in the original post seem related mostly to format of pre-existing content and habits rather than availability or diversity of software; it might be hard to blame anyone for this, but it is a valid concern nevertheless.
Last edited by qviri; 2009-06-07 at 04:14.