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2009-06-10
, 11:10
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Posts: 1,418 |
Thanked: 1,541 times |
Joined on Feb 2008
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#42
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Originally Posted by qgil
Actually, I can't at the moment (all file managers available for Diablo have drawbacks, although Midnight Commander works best, with hardware keyboard open). The problem also affects the standard file selector though, so people who just want to open a file in some application have to wait for a long, long time if there is a lot of files in the current directory and/or its immediate children.
If you have 1000 files in single folders and you want to dive through them searching songs, videos or images then you can always find an alternative to the Maemo file manager, not intended for your purposes.
At the end the file manager is an application just like the browser of the media player. If you don't like what comes pre-installed then you can try something else.
So, yes, I can abandon all the apps Nokia ships with the device and use third-party ones. But this will mean that Nokia utterly failed in delivering a device that is usable out-of-the-box. When you ship a device, you have to ship it with apps that actually work and are comfortable to use. Instead, you seem to choose a really small number of artificially created "use cases" and tell everyone not fitting them to just bug off. Don't you think it is wrong?
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2009-06-10
, 11:13
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Posts: 1,418 |
Thanked: 1,541 times |
Joined on Feb 2008
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#43
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Originally Posted by qgil
For the record: I did not complain about that. Yet.
Is it a coincidence that those of you complaining about the real estate usage of the file manager complain also about finger optimization vs stylus usage? Of course not. You are consistent with your priorities, and we try to be consistent with our priorities as well. Not easy to make everybody happy.
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2009-06-10
, 11:13
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Posts: 3,105 |
Thanked: 11,088 times |
Joined on Jul 2007
@ Mountain View (CA, USA)
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#44
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Originally Posted by lma
Fully agreed.
IMHO is there is (for example) a PDF reader in the shipped firmware it should either be the best reader available, replaced with the one that is, or at least made removable (not depended on by osso-software-version-xxxx).
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2009-06-10
, 11:43
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Posts: 654 |
Thanked: 664 times |
Joined on Feb 2009
@ Germany
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#45
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Originally Posted by qgil
Ok, many applications would still need some tweak here and there. But the transition from a landscape UI to a portrait UI would be much easier for the developers if they would get something working quickly. I agree that the process should not be completely automatic and that (as it is now) the developer should mark itīs program as "portrait ready".
Again, it would help having real examples of Diablo applications that would benefit from seamless portrait mode without specific UI rework (if the application framework was perfect and prepared for that).
Still I can see many use cases where a _dialog_ is still needed in portrait mode. And having to work around an issue like that is more then adjusting the UI a bit.
Also blaming that issue on Gtk is questionable. I mean did Gtk change dialogs in a way that the buttons are displayed on the right side of a dialog?
Originally Posted by qgil
Well this all has been discussed on the developer mailing list in several threads. I think the intention of this thread was exactly to talk about _all_ things people are worrying about regarding Fremantle.
Sorry guys but it makes little sense to have a discussion of severa unrelated problems in a single thread. I'm happy continuing the discussion in specific threads.
I think itīs good to have this thread and to discuss the software and developer platform instead of always talking about the hardware. At least the software is testable right now.
Also I think itīs good to make those bugs visible to a broader audience so that they have the option to vote on these.
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2009-06-10
, 14:05
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Posts: 119 |
Thanked: 79 times |
Joined on May 2009
@ Brasilia, Brazil
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#46
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I'm sorry, but I read the whole thread and some things remain unclear. After all, will I or will I not be able to select text in Fremantle like I do in Diablo? Will I or will I not be able to cut copy paste?
Honestly, even though I understand the concern with portrait/landscape on the developer's side, I understand Nokia's position on the matter. Honestly, I do.
As an engaged user and nothing more, I so far have had no problem with the file manager, if for no other reason because I knew, by simply looking at it, that it couldn't handle large file collections. It just couldn't. Once again, as just an engaged user I don't miss that feature much. I have large collections of music but only need Canola to use it. Now, from the same engaged user perspective, shipping the next OS with such a poor file manager together with such a limited media player and no pre-installed Canola (or another media library manager just as functional and user/finger-friendly) would be a huge shot in your own foot. COMMERCIALLY speaking.
(make modest better too. And implement system-wide, easily accessed search features that include e-mail body search. But I digress.)
Finally
Truer words have seldom been spoken.
Honestly, even though I understand the concern with portrait/landscape on the developer's side, I understand Nokia's position on the matter. Honestly, I do.
As an engaged user and nothing more, I so far have had no problem with the file manager, if for no other reason because I knew, by simply looking at it, that it couldn't handle large file collections. It just couldn't. Once again, as just an engaged user I don't miss that feature much. I have large collections of music but only need Canola to use it. Now, from the same engaged user perspective, shipping the next OS with such a poor file manager together with such a limited media player and no pre-installed Canola (or another media library manager just as functional and user/finger-friendly) would be a huge shot in your own foot. COMMERCIALLY speaking.
(make modest better too. And implement system-wide, easily accessed search features that include e-mail body search. But I digress.)
Finally
So, yes, I can abandon all the apps Nokia ships with the device and use third-party ones. But this will mean that Nokia utterly failed in delivering a device that is usable out-of-the-box. When you ship a device, you have to ship it with apps that actually work and are comfortable to use. Instead, you seem to choose a really small number of artificially created "use cases" and tell everyone not fitting them to just bug off. Don't you think it is wrong?
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2009-06-10
, 14:16
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Posts: 631 |
Thanked: 1,123 times |
Joined on Sep 2005
@ Helsinki
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#47
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Originally Posted by fms
I can't really understand how you can read my sentence of "The File manager UI optimizes for file management tasks" into "Are you telling me that the File Manager is not an optimal UI for managing files?"
Wait. Marketing gibberish aside, media and images are just files. Are you telling me that the File Manager is not an optimal UI for managing files???
No?
Originally Posted by fms
No, we're not saying that. File manager is specifically optimized for managing files.
What I find highly unusual is that we now have two Nokia employees in this thread trying to tell us that we are not supposed to manage files with the File Manager. Are you serious, guys?
What we're saying is that managing files != consuming files. File management is for copying/moving/sorting/creating folders etc., consumption is for browsing, filtering, consuming etc. The optimal UI's for those two streams of tasks are different.
File manager should optimize to show attributes of files that are relevant to the file management tasks whereas a consumption UI should show content in a way that optimizes for consumption. For consumption you don't care about file sizes and dates and file names, but you want to see the metadata presentation of such content, and convenient handles in the UI to consume in different manners. Say in the case of music through artists, songs, albums, genres etc.
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2009-06-10
, 14:26
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Posts: 1,418 |
Thanked: 1,541 times |
Joined on Feb 2008
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#48
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Originally Posted by ragnar
This is not the sentence I have been commenting on. I have been commenting on your insistence that one should not use the File Manager to manage media files. This sounded rather silly to me, as there is no principal difference between media files and other files.
I can't really understand how you can read my sentence of "The File manager UI optimizes for file management tasks" into "Are you telling me that the File Manager is not an optimal UI for managing files?"
No, we're not saying that. File manager is specifically optimized for managing files.
1. Maemo File Manager does not make good use of screen estate by showing just a few files and obscuring long file name from the user.
2. Maemo File Manager cannot handle directories containing a lot of files (it becomes unusably slow on them, and eventually crashes, I think).
These two issues have to be fixed before you can say that Maemo File Manager is optimized for managing files. Same issues have to be fixed in the standard file selector.
What we're saying is that managing files != consuming files. File management is for copying/moving/sorting/creating folders etc., consumption is for browsing, filtering, consuming etc. The optimal UI's for those two streams of tasks are different.
__________________
Computer and Console Emulators for Maemo, Symbian, and more.
Pack Rat: The Maemo Package Aggregator.
Computer and Console Emulators for Maemo, Symbian, and more.
Pack Rat: The Maemo Package Aggregator.
Last edited by fms; 2009-06-10 at 14:28.
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2009-06-10
, 14:30
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Posts: 631 |
Thanked: 1,123 times |
Joined on Sep 2005
@ Helsinki
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#49
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Originally Posted by fms
Obviously that is not our goal.
So, yes, I can abandon all the apps Nokia ships with the device and use third-party ones. But this will mean that Nokia utterly failed in delivering a device that is usable out-of-the-box. When you ship a device, you have to ship it with apps that actually work and are comfortable to use. Instead, you seem to choose a really small number of artificially created "use cases" and tell everyone not fitting them to just bug off. Don't you think it is wrong?
Then again, not every use case that every person happens to mention will automatically get accepted into the list of implementable features.
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2009-06-10
, 14:46
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Posts: 1,418 |
Thanked: 1,541 times |
Joined on Feb 2008
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#50
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Originally Posted by ragnar
But I hope you do agree that these are valid use cases that pretty much have to be accepted:
Obviously that is not our goal. Then again, not every use case that every person happens to mention will automatically get accepted into the list of implementable features.
1. Managing files (variable number of files of variable size, including large files and directories with a lot of files)
2. Playing games (including 3D games and fast paced games with directional controls)
3. Reading books and other documents
4. Consulting maps
I am kinda concerned about three use cases appear becoming abandoned in the upcoming Fremantle device at the moment. And to me, they do not look like unreasonable scenarios only encountered by geek weirdos.
Please notice that #3 and #4 basically benefit from retaining largish screen size, so they are more on the hardware side. #2 needs both physical directional controls and reasonable 3D APIs for apps (in an exclusive full-screen mode, if required by hildon-desktop specifics). #1 just needs somebody to sit down and fix that damn file manager, and the file selector as well. Preferably, this has to be some guy who uses file managers and knows what they should look like.
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IMHO is there is (for example) a PDF reader in the shipped firmware it should either be the best reader available, replaced with the one that is, or at least made removable (not depended on by osso-software-version-xxxx).