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Fontus is offline Fontus
2009-08-14 , 21:20
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#11
Originally Posted by silvermountain View Post
Individual development is fail?
The vast majority of applications for the NIT seems to be developed by individuals.
While passion and being part of a community is wonderful - a single developer for an application is also a recipe for disaster.
I take your NIT is your first and only experience with free software. Yes, I don't like the current state of the software for Maemo too, but if you try some "normal" distribution of Linux (e.g. Ubuntu) you will see that great software can be made by free developers.

There several reasons for the current state of the Maemo software and one of them is that currently the Maemo community is small.

Originally Posted by silvermountain View Post
The person gets bored, moves on to something else, 'real life' takes over, he has to sell his device, freemantle looks shiny - you name it - and poof...the development is in 9/10 cases now dead.

Forget about future enhancements, upgrades, support when issues comes up.
This is not a problem for the good free software. When a good free software is orphaned there are always volunteers to take over its maintenance. When a proprietary software is orphaned, it is dead. When the maintainer of a free software does things people don't like, there will be someone to fork the project and resolve the issues. When a company does bad things with a proprietary software the users have no choice but to accept the company's decision.

Some years ago I followed the development of FreeDos. For a long time their COMMAND.COM didn't work properly. At some time the main developer of COMMAND.COM regretfully decided to abandon it. In result two people started to work simultaneously on COMMAND.COM and now it is much better than the proprietary versions in MS-DOS and DR-DOS.

Later the same thing happened to me. I have orphaned software that I have written and despite this this software is used on milions of computers and other people are improving it further even now.

Originally Posted by silvermountain View Post
1) Put pressure on Nokia to support the base applications that were part of the reason we [I] bought the device in the first place (Skype just one example).
Many people here will not do this even if they use Skype (I don't). It is better to ask for open hardware specifications.

Originally Posted by silvermountain View Post
2) Be open to selling/purchasing applications. There are tens of iPhone applications I can think of that I would pay for to have on my NIT.
People should be more willing to sell their applications. If you have committed to accept payment for your development three things can/will happen;
a) The developer, gains a sense of responsibility to maintain the application and not drop it as soon as something seems more fun,
Look what happened to most shareware programs. They became dead when their authors decided something else was more fun. On the other hand no free software with enough user-base has ever died unless better replacement has been found.

Originally Posted by silvermountain View Post
b) If the application is good and gains a user-base it may very well be possible and even desirable to hand it over/sell it to someone should the initial developer have to phase out,
Except in practice this doesn't happen.

Originally Posted by silvermountain View Post
4) Specifically to developers here: Once you have a sufficient user-base - meaning a lot of people that really enjoy and use your application. Start taking some responsibility if you are the only person developing it. What is your contingency plan if you get bored with the application/NITs next week?
I don't think developers should worry too much about this. Some other thing is more important - people at Nokia need to learn how to work properly with self-driven free software community. Yes, now they are doing this much better than 3 years ago, but there are still some things to do. I'd like to propose the following good practices of Debian:
  • The package maintainers should be able to officially declare a package as orphaned.
  • There should be some facilities to support a group of volunteers working for orphaned packages. Very often an important change in the operating system requires to modify a few lines in package, in other cases the bug report contains patch fixing it. This allows a small group (even one person) to keep a lot of packages alive.
  • Someone should check regularly for orphaned packages. For example at Debian (about 1000 developers) they are sending email to developers that have not done anything for some time.
  • At Debian the section of the packages (Editor, Games, Communication programs, etc.) is not determined by the individual developers. This requires someone with proper view of the whole project.
 

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JayOnThaBeat is offline JayOnThaBeat
2009-08-14 , 21:34
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#12
Of course free fails. (in the sense you're speaking of)

$$$ makes innovation happen (not to mention makes the world go round).

Good thread tho. Bred discussion. Discussion's always good.
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silvermountain is offline silvermountain
2009-08-14 , 21:49
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#13
Originally Posted by zerojay View Post
The NITs to this point haven't really been meant for mainstream audiences, so yeah.... you're going to have those issues.
I will find it very hard to believe that any device manufactured by a company like Nokia targets a market that will not generate a profit. If that market is 'mainstream' or not is irrelevant as we're talking about a device sold to customers where the support has been less than adequate. So not sure what you mean that 'you are going to have those issues' as much of what I brought up had to do with Nokia's absence.

Originally Posted by zerojay View Post
Tell you what... the next application that stops being updated... you're going to be responsible for it. Oh, that's not fair? Well, it's not really fair to expect infinite support from the developer either if he's not interested in working on it anymore.
Tell you what...why don't you re-read what I actually said and check the attitude at the door?

Originally Posted by zerojay View Post
Programming ISN'T easy, so I don't understand the "take, take, take" attitude some users have. If you want program X to be updated and the programmer isn't interested in doing it anymore (because, as you said yourself, programming just isn't that easy), either learn how to do it yourself or find people that will. And if you won't bother doing that, you probably don't really need that update that badly after all, do you?

If you are getting bored with your tablet, it's most likely because you bought it to be excited for the updates and new features rather than... you know... USING it.
Once again I have no idea if you actually mis-read everything I wrote or if you're on a personal trolling exercise.
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Last edited by silvermountain; 2009-08-14 at 21:57.
 

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silvermountain is offline silvermountain
2009-08-14 , 21:54
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#14
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
I've said it before: the lone cowboy coding efforts are great for quick-and-dirty little apps that make something nicer or easier-- but they don't cut it for mainstream use. That requires TEAMS. Not necessarily teams of coders, but cross-functional teams that include some sort of official Maemo interface.

This is part of my proposed presentation for the Maemo Summit, which I will release whether I get sponsored to go or not. But not until October 10.
Thanks, someone who actually understood the point(s) in my posts.
The lone-cowboy approach is fun and endearing..but in the long run will keep a product very niched AND drive the masses away from it.
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qole is offline qole
2009-08-14 , 22:01
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#15
I want to point out that I have seen two cases in Maemo where free (as in freedom, not free as in beer) has been all WIN when closed would have been fail.

One of the two cases is the piece of software you're using, the Google Voice app, DialCentral. It was started by a lone coder who got bored and abandoned the project, but it was picked up by two other coders and carried on until today. Only one of them is left, epage, but he wasn't the one to start it...

Another classic example is the Webkit engine for the default browser. The original dev disappeared, but because he had dumped his code in Garage, a new developer was able to pick up where he left off. Well, not exactly where he left off, the original guy made some changes and then never added them to his Garage project so the new developer had to rewrite a bunch of stuff before he could continue on...

See, free (as in freedom, not as in beer) has one big advantage: if it is really a useful, desirable piece of software, someone new can pick up where the last guy stopped. Once a developer of closed software abandons his app, that's it, the app is dead.

When the Maemo community gets bigger, the win in free is going to become clearer and clearer.
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2009-08-14 , 22:10
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#16
Originally Posted by silvermountain View Post
I will find it very hard to believe that any device manufactured by a company like Nokia targets a market that will not generate a profit.
Believe it. Get familiar with the 5-step program-- it explains all.
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silvermountain is offline silvermountain
2009-08-14 , 22:14
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#17
Originally Posted by nwerneck View Post
The idea that a software needs to be always evolving with more and more enhancements and in a continuous development is a marketing trick. Programs can be a single tool that does a certain job and never changes much. Look at xchat for example. Conboy is an application I like much, and I don't expect to see any changes in it. What updates does Hex-a-hop need? Skype itself. It already calls. Great! No video... But that is not "our" fault.
Point is that there is a multitude of applications that are developed to 60-70%, being posted about and discussed and used by many. Then..nothing.

There is an another slew of applications that works well to 95% but with an annoying bug. Developer is gone.

Do I have to use them? No - but sometimes they are the only way to get an application for a particular purpose on the NIT.

Would I have preferred ONE application developed by company X and paid $25 bucks for it rather than four applications that ends up unfinished? Yes. Thing is I also love the community development spirit and to try out new applications - I just wish that there was a mechanism to ensure some level of continuity/contingency of community developed app. Sure open source but honestly that seems to be applicable in these situations in rather rare cases.

It just feels that it's a constant playground with players that gets bored and moves on - and a 'host' [Nokia] that is not willing to provide a) updates to the existing applications or b) new developments.

I'm a NIT user just like you. Granted only with close to 3 months of NIT experience and ZERO Unix experience before I came here. My views are just as valid and I would not be surprised if my frustration is shared by others like me.


Originally Posted by nwerneck View Post
Can you even speak Finnish so we can try to swear them in their native language?
No but I speak Swedish and lived in Helsinki for a year.

Originally Posted by nwerneck View Post
If I had a program, and people gave me money because of that program, I would not feel and kind of obligation to continue development, perhaps even to fix bugs.
Sorry but I stopped reading your post after that as I don't think there is a common platform.
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Last edited by silvermountain; 2009-08-14 at 22:21.
 

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geneven is offline geneven
2009-08-14 , 22:15
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#18
I agree with the basic silvermountain diagnosis; the only partial solution that I can think of is that developers should ask for money more often (and asking isn't the same thing as insisting). I was delighted when the Liqbase developer requested donations, and I quickly gave what I could afford.

I guess the reason I think that might help is that it could foster more of a sense of responsibility from developers and users alike.

I don't think that the "well, if you aren't happy start coding!" suggestion is seriously meant. I think it's actually designed as a good excuse for the current situation.
 

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attila77 is offline attila77
2009-08-14 , 22:28
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#19
Originally Posted by silvermountain View Post
Would I have preferred ONE application developed by company X and paid $25 bucks for it rather than four applications that ends up unfinished? Yes.
If $ would be a surefire way of securing quality, I'd concur. But it doesn't. Take a look at the most common commercial NIT apps.

Wayfinder. Outrageous price, eclipsed only by the outdatedness, low quality (or general lack) of maps for even EU countries.

Skype (yes, it's a commercial app even if you don't pay in all usage scenarios). Where do I start ? Video, file transfer... Too 'extra' ? How about something *simple*, like a working DTMF panel for voicemail/call centers or being able to (gasp) receive a message while I'm talking ? No sir, too complex to do right even though I'm a paying customer.

If THESE are the $ apps I'm comparing to, I'll take the 4 unfinished OSS maemo apps anyday. And you DO have finished maemo apps.
 

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2009-08-14 , 22:37
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#20
While we are a community, we are not yet a full-fledged coding community.

Something else I'm going to present in my speech:

corporation-------------------community---------------------lone coders
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
coding for $$$----team coding with self-management----WYSIWYG

It's hard to get the full point across in these posts but you basically have the 3 categories of coding above. We have developed into a community, but coding efforts by and large have not matured along with other communal activities (like yakking ). We are not Ubuntu or Debian... but IMO that's where we need to be. Right now we are stuck between "community" and "lone coder".

We've already hashed and rehashed ad nauseum over the things that got us to this uncomfortable limbo and it's time to move past that and toward solutions. Again, I will cover this in my presentation but I have also posed the necessary questions in my thread on the subject. Please feel free to offer opinions there on what we can do to move forward.

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=30644&page=3
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Last edited by Texrat; 2009-08-14 at 22:42.
 

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