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VDVsx is offline VDVsx
2009-08-16 , 15:55
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#71
Originally Posted by debernardis View Post
I apologize for my ignorance and for this being maybe offtopic but... will these widgets one can make with the Nokia Web Runtime, usable in the Maemo 5 environment? I mean, is it possible to make a desktop widget for rx-51 with these development instructions?
Thanks
According to the Maemo Summit schedule[1][2], I think so

[1] - http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_Summit_2009/Schedule
[2] - http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_Summit_2...ia_Web_Runtime
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gerbick
2009-08-16 , 17:38
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#72
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
"It's very safe to say"? Good that you are not in our product planning team.
Quite right. I would have had this discussion publicly last year and products ready to go this year.

The ideal scenario is to offer easy tools for developing simple stuff in the surface, easier tools to develop applications in the native environment and also powerful tools to allow platform developers to come with those rare wonders. It's very safe to say that we are working in these directions, and for us pushing on doesn't mean eliminating the other too.
When will these tools come to fruition? Talk is incredibly cheap.

Time to deliver or you will entice nobody.

Let's face it. The request(s) for games, 3D engines, location aware apps, have taken a backseat to bash, emacs, tcp/ip stacks, and root access with Open Office being thrown around to counter the MS Office announcement(s).

No disrespect, but that does show a tremendously different mindset. And nothing is wrong with that at all. The Nokia Maemo set is a different set. If I want to play Touch KO - made with Unity 3D 2.5 - on my iPhone, I crank it up, play for a bit, enjoy the 3D textured, motion captured boxers in their multi-touch glory, close that app, check for any sales via the Priceless Picks - which has MasterCard and Amazon backing - for any sales nearby using my location, and head out of the house using the Trapster app that tells me if any cops have been seen near my house before I hot-foot it out in my car too fast.

With that said, I don't see any of that here on this site. We have apps that work... some damn well. I can't attack that. I won't.

But I see immediate responses to "I don't want iFart apps". I don't either. But the media centered on that stuff... because well nobody thought it was wanted and it sold. Somehow. Oh well... can't say that people all have good tastes.

And that goes both ways. Yet, to sit here, read an entire thread of IT professionals that are as far removed from the mainstream middle as the iFart puerile app purchasers too. Deliver the goods that were semi-delivered last generation. Video using the camera... that means get Skype, Gizmo, Fring, RTCom involved.

Office suite stuff... you got Microsoft involved on Symbian, and once the N900 is officially released, I'm sure there will be another announcement.

But to sit here and not notice that what's been talked about will never entice an Apple iPhone dev - lack of tools, lack of focus, lack of interest - as an registered iPhone dev, I'd not dev for this platform because it doesn't have the audience I'd seek for my products.

Perhaps if I made stuff that tweaked the dbus, bluetooth stack, or something like that... yeah. But location aware or entertainment apps... not mentioned here enough to cause interest.

I'm sure your typical stalwarts will gladly reward you with yet another thanks for anything else you state; but seriously. How many shells, emacs/vi/pico editors do I really need on a phone?
Last edited by gerbick; 2009-08-16 at 17:50.
 

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2009-08-16 , 18:16
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#73
Originally Posted by tso View Post
i fear that multitasking confuses people, especially when there is a gui involved so that one may never have a indication that anything is being done.
I do think Apple was smart to restrict multitasking to a few strategic applications, the way ysss explained. It makes things simpler, and prevents the users to see the system ever get sluggish from too many open programs. Myself, I prefer an unrestriccted system with a warning window like Maemo.

To get back in topic, maybe the greater liberty in Maemo should attract some developers and users looking for that. Of course, it would be just a minoroty of users, but here is a point we can explore to attract people, in opposition to remove this difference, make Maemo the same as iPhone and trying to attract them with... I don't know, lower prices?...


Originally Posted by tso View Post
i ones read that elderly people, ones being shown the basics, found the command line of a unix environment informative.
I think I know this text, I like it very much!
 
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zerojay is offline zerojay
2009-08-16 , 18:33
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#74
What you're not considering is that the iPhone and Maemo are at two different stages. The iPhone is at a mature state (for the most part), but it took time to get it there.

Maemo is still in a young, immature state... and that's something that's been known since the beginning. The difference here is that Apple did all their development internally and behind closed doors, whereas Nokia decided to try and experiment with Maemo and make it open WAY earlier, putting out hardware earlier.

Yes, there's a different market for the two right now. Maemo isn't meant for the consumer yet. Fremantle is basically the first attempt to making this platform more mainstream, along the same lines of the first release of the iPhone. Remember, the iPhone didn't have stuff like Unity (which I also use at work) until later on in its life. If the Fremantle device ends up being a much more mainstream piece of hardware (more mainstream than the tablets anyway), we're going to get a lot more interest from developers... we're going to get people thinking about putting out middleware like Unity for the platform (which is much easier now considering the Fremantle device and the iPhone 3GS run on the same CPU).

Essentially speaking, the 770, N800 and N810 are prototype devices getting us to version 1.0, the Fremantle device, if you want to compare them to Apple's releases.

You can't just snap your fingers and boom, you've got a mature device. So yes, people are trying to solidify the basics (bash, etc...) so that we can have a chance to build something better on top of it. You're right, we're not going to attract iPhone devs right now because it just doesn't make much sense to try to do so.

That's just my interpretation though. We'll see what happens when Fremantle is released.
Last edited by zerojay; 2009-08-16 at 18:40.
 

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gerbick
2009-08-16 , 18:50
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#75
Originally Posted by zerojay View Post
What you're not considering is that the iPhone and Maemo are at two different stages. The iPhone is at a mature state (for the most part), but it took time to get it there.

Maemo is still in a young, immature state... and that's something that's been known since the beginning. The difference here is that Apple did all their development internally and behind closed doors, whereas Nokia decided to try and experiment with Maemo and make it open WAY earlier, putting out hardware earlier.
Normally I'd agree with you, but the 770 and Maemo were out before the iPhone.

Why did it mature faster than Maemo? Heck, why is Maemo maturing slower than Android - similarly closed?

Being open should benefit the platform. It's a draw I thought.
 

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qgil is offline qgil
2009-08-16 , 18:58
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#76
gerbick, you are making very safe conclusions about the present and the future of Maemo, and of course you are free to do so. I just think you are being too simplistic and conclusive, that's all.

Between enticing happy iPhone developers and hacking emacs extensions there is some gap. Also you need to coordinate steps: a great SDK will attract a critical mass of developers only with great products and great sales.

We are working. I don't know if in the direction and at the speed you wish, but we are doing a lot of work. That's all I have to say now, actually. Because you are right, talk is cheap so we better wait and see the facts.
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zerojay is offline zerojay
2009-08-16 , 19:11
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#77
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
Normally I'd agree with you, but the 770 and Maemo were out before the iPhone.

Why did it mature faster than Maemo? Heck, why is Maemo maturing slower than Android - similarly closed?

Being open should benefit the platform. It's a draw I thought.
I don't work at Nokia, but I believe that Maemo, as a whole, was started to become the next high-end OS for their phones and that the pieces of hardware and releases of Maemo were pretty much just meant to be public betas for what Maemo was to become. When that five-step plan for Maemo was shown by... I think Ari, I was sure of it.

The tablets probably were never expected to do anything except cultivate a developer community and improvements to Maemo before the real target hardware (Fremantle) is released.

As for why Apple's stuff matured faster than the iPhone... I don't know if it has or not. Only someone that's been on the inside at Apple can really say. A fanatical userbase is definitely part of it.

I think another reason why Maemo hasn't matured as fast is because the tablets, to this point, are specialized pieces of hardware. They're branded as internet tablets, not as phones. Developers are less interested in something like that. That's why I believe that once we'll have Maemo running on a more attractive piece of hardware, a phone, we'll start seeing a lot more interest (though I would be lying if I said the interest would be up to Apple's levels). People need phones... they can do without internet tablets. Android is on a phone, so pretty much automatically you've got a lot more people interested in something like that.

Again, I could be all wrong here... that's just my theory and viewpoint on it. Let's see what Fremantle brings.
 

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Stskeeps is offline Stskeeps
2009-08-16 , 20:07
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#78
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
When will these tools come to fruition? Talk is incredibly cheap.

Time to deliver or you will entice nobody.
IDE integration (http://maemo.org/development/documen...e_integration/) is a much overseen area where a lot of interesting development is done - which hopefully will benefit people developing for Maemo and get most developers away from raw Scratchbox..

That said, there is something interesting about the widget angle on apps versus full-blown apps: think a RSS reader widget just for the New York Times vs a full blown RSS reader. Sometimes a widget approach is nicer to have when you're navigating around in your personal mobile device and need a specific information right here right now.
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gerbick
2009-08-16 , 20:08
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#79
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
gerbick, you are making very safe conclusions about the present and the future of Maemo, and of course you are free to do so. I just think you are being too simplistic and conclusive, that's all.

Between enticing happy iPhone developers and hacking emacs extensions there is some gap. Also you need to coordinate steps: a great SDK will attract a critical mass of developers only with great products and great sales.

We are working. I don't know if in the direction and at the speed you wish, but we are doing a lot of work. That's all I have to say now, actually. Because you are right, talk is cheap so we better wait and see the facts.
I think that you truly fail to see - unwilling? - that what is easily perceived to be where Nokia is concentrating upon at this moment, or have for the last 24 months; will not entice any developer away from iPhone dev.

The current SDK is problematic for many. I believe ZeroJay had stated problems getting it to run. He's, admittedly so by me, seemingly tons more competent than I in setting up something as such in the Linux environment.

There's not much to it other than that... have an SDK that makes sense to people, that's easily extended into areas that are sorely lacking at the moment, make it run across many platforms, or at least one platform well. That has yet to happen in the two years I've been around Maemo.

That doesn't mean that it won't happen. And I'm looking forward to the day it does happen.

There's nothing conclusive about what I say. For once, look at how you're likely to be perceived.

As a company, you have have three iterations of a platform that's changed multiple times and yet has yet to gain SDK friendliness of Apple's SDK. Heck, the XBOX SDK for their XDNA games/utilities is friendlier. The ability to dev by many levels and types of developers is paramount. It's not happening fast enough for a few people because they can change their mind, develop for WebOS, Android or iPhone right now easily. Or they can develop for the Zune or XBOX right now easily. All because the SDK is there, today, and it's friendlier than what Nokia has in place right now.

The perception of what you're offering is that it still is for tinkerers and Linux gurus that care for more emacs, et al than an app that knows where you are, can tie into another program very well, and just "work". Mashups, et al seem to have escaped this crowd.

If I'm being simplistic, it's because of the lack of understanding afforded to the community that supports your product. I read these groups daily. I'm a developer and if you've not convinced me, then you've not done your job. Your products haven't enticed me beyond being a hobbyist.

But with that said, I have 100% faith you will get there. And I'd love to be there when you do.

It's just not right now. Not yet.
 

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gerbick
2009-08-16 , 20:40
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#80
Originally Posted by zerojay View Post
As for why Apple's stuff matured faster than the iPhone... I don't know if it has or not. Only someone that's been on the inside at Apple can really say. A fanatical userbase is definitely part of it.

Again, I could be all wrong here... that's just my theory and viewpoint on it. Let's see what Fremantle brings.
And that's ultimately my point. I don't think that it has matured faster than Maemo. Almost even footing in a few key areas.

The SDK and the app base are where the Apple offering has an advantage - I'm leaving out sales because I don't know Nokia's - but as it stands, I think that will be a difficult hill to climb in a bit.

The SDK and the app base - and ultimately the perception of what's there and what people truly want from this platform.

I, for one, don't want a few things that have been asked for in this thread. But I don't mind them being asked for. I do have a few wants... and yet I feel as if - sorry to personalize this - that I'm being scoffed at for having an opinion.

And that's my point. I have an opinion and ultimately I'm backing Nokia, I'm backing Maemo, I'm backing Mer.
 

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