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nymajoak is offline nymajoak
2009-09-26 , 11:27
Posts: 199 | Thanked: 144 times | Joined on Sep 2009 @ gbg.se
#41
Regarding homescreen and widgets:
The problem is with the free positioning of the widgets if I understand correctly. On rotation they might collide/overlap or end up partly outside the screen. I don't think we want to get rid of the free positioning or have resizing widgets.

The location of the widgets are somehow stored by the OS. Could it be a start to have two separate location storages, one for portrait and one for landscape? After adding a widget and rotating the screen the first time, the user can move the new widget to suit also the other orientation.

This would mean the user has to configure the homescreen for both orientations and might be a bit annoying if a lot of widgets are added in one go, but at least when adding only one I don't think this would bug me as a user too much.

Cons, from the top of my head:
* Width of widgets would be limited to 480 pixels, minus whatever padding is needed.
* Any animations on rotation would need some thought (the widgets wouldn't only rotate but also translate/move). Should be able to look fluid but at what computational cost I don't know.

An extension (not replacing the possibility for manual repositioning) might be to attempt some sort of semi-intelligent auto-repositioning of the widgets by the software. Probably a mess to get working well and the gain (getting a "good suggestion for positions in the other orientation") is probably not great. Note that this would not need to be triggered on every rotation, only when changes to the homescreen had been made.


Well, I tried.
Last edited by nymajoak; 2009-09-26 at 12:06. Reason: typo
 

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YoDude is offline YoDude
2009-09-26 , 12:40
Posts: 2,869 | Thanked: 1,784 times | Joined on Feb 2007 @ Po' Bo'. PA
#42
Originally Posted by christexaport View Post
You forget when I first started trying to get support for ASR, you were there. You didn't point me to any resources, developers experienced in rotation solutions, or give me any advice other than "do something about it and don't just keep whining." Or does my memory not serve me well. I'll admit, I don't remember anyone, but I do remember seeing you everywhere, but not hearing one helpful word. I have gotten help and support from others, so I'm ok now, but it would've been nice to have someone give me an introduction to the who's how's and where's of this site.


I've been pretty vocal and present since the N900 announcements. I don't recall you mentioning anything helpful. Forgive me if I'm off base here. But I can name the helpful ones on one hand.


I don't spend all of my time here. I am an editor at two other sites, and keep up with my own forums. And with the bad design of this site, are you surprised I didn't see that thread? And do you think that solution is what I'm looking for? Did YOU point me to the site? I notice you've been in all of the threads I was "whining" in, so why didn't you say something if you knew about it?

I'm an alien here. I don't know my way around things, and have had to self start. Don't knock me, because I think I've done pretty well, considering. I've started my own brainstorm, gathered my "experts" and am working on a solution as we speak. I hope you'll join us instead of engaging me in ping pong on this thread. I'm not about all of this kid mess. Its really discouraging and childish. I got upset the other day, but I usually don't indulge in this type of crap.


This forum is oriented towards developers and seasoned users with Linux experience, but lacking in support for new users and former Symbian users. I'll fill that space and allow my users to share ideas there and here as well. We promote this site, even though its not where it needs to be yet. My goal is to get it there. Care to help?


I like it, but I don't see any mentoring or helpfulness from you in my experience. What is this reposting of the same picture supposed to do? When will you give me some useful advice in pertinence to ASR and getting a software project off the ground? Can you help me in any way in that regard? Because I'm probably older than you, and not into all of this back and forth. Exactly what do you want from me? Right now, you're wasting my time and yours.


I didn't know I was doing anything wrong. I did what I could to find the necessary talent I needed. Since you have a book on rules of posting, how do you suggest I may have acted? I would've made a thread, but they just get hijacked by haters, and its hard to get a thread noticed the way the site is designed.

And I wasn't thread crapping. I posted in threads mentioning rotation of the UI thinking developers with experience I could utilize in my ASR dreams would be there. Turns out I was right. In retrospect, I could've PM'd him, but I wanted more eyes than just those. Some may just be reading the thread and find interest.

I made one short post in each thread. No moderators have expressed any problem with it, just you. Are you a moderator? If so, just tell me the posting rules and move on.


So unless we agree, you'll keep pestering me and hijacking my thread? How childish. Maybe it IS productive, and others should try it until this forum is redesigned. And what you call cross posting I call networking. I only wished you were interested in seeing me make progress, not word boxing with me.

I don't get any rewards for posting. I'm just using the thread as a social tool to communicate with others of similar interest. Your badgering me is pissing me off, but I'm gonna let you make it. I have better things to do. What you've done in the past means diddley. What are you doing so helpful now, bro? Why not help me instead of being...whatever you call this??

So do you have anything to add to the ASR effort for Fremantle or not?

WOW!




So basically, instead of answering my question you decided to make unsupported statements about me.

You are right about me not being a moderator here but that doesn't change the question:

WHY DID YOU FEEL THAT CROSS POSTING AND THREAD DUMPING WAS JUSTIFIED?
(Us old heads tend to increase the volume when our questions are being ignored. We think you young'uns may be hard of hearing or suttin' )


The end does not justify the means.

...and BTW, I do not have an N900. Nor do I have the software development kit set up on my desktop so I can't see how I could have helped you. I have learned in my life not to make commitments that I can't support.

Do you have an N900 or the SDK set up?
Last edited by YoDude; 2009-09-26 at 12:42.
 
Thor is offline Thor
2009-09-26 , 13:00
Posts: 488 | Thanked: 107 times | Joined on Sep 2009 @ Asgard / Midgard / London
#43
I like some of your ideas.

-The biggest problem here really is the desktop. The multitasking screen should be pretty straight forward as they are all windows of a fixed size. Just rotate and re-locate and that's done.

-Most applications will probably have to have a landscape and/or portrait UI. Is this how it is designed in the iPhone and Android phones? I'm not sure how the n97 one works as I don't have one, but I remember the home screen on my N82 does not rotate from portrait mode.

-we can have a separate landscape and portrait homescreens/desktops but this would get confusing in everyday use if they all have different widgets/icons on them, essentially giving 8 homescreens.

-One way to autorotate the desktop is to leave the resizing and require scrolling to get to the other side. This could apply in any application if autorotation is a requirement, but will leave "widescreen bars" at the top and bottom in portrait mode.

-Another way would be to allow resizing of widgets (probably manually by the user?) not just width but height as well, with word wrapped text, if it is updated dynamically. This will require vertical scrolling, but I think would be a great solution while keeping dynamic content.

-Another way would be to translate the landscape desktop to portrait mode using icons instead of dynamic widgets with a few excepts. I would think the likes of twitter, messenger IM, SMS, email icons would be similar to the blackberry. For example, when a new message arrives, put a star on the corner of the icon. It's very noticeable. Also, the number of unread messages can be listed next to it, such as 5 for 5 unread emails/IMs etc. This will end up with a bit more of an iPhone/Blackberry look, but will allow all icons to be on the portrait mode screen with no scrolling required. It would also assign a specific icon size and act as shortcuts to the main program. If you must see the dynamic content, tough, you will just have to access the program, or rotate to landscape mode. I think that could work.

Any thoughts?

Originally Posted by nymajoak View Post
Regarding homescreen and widgets:
The problem is with the free positioning of the widgets if I understand correctly. On rotation they might collide/overlap or end up partly outside the screen. I don't think we want to get rid of the free positioning or have resizing widgets.

The location of the widgets are somehow stored by the OS. Could it be a start to have two separate location storages, one for portrait and one for landscape? After adding a widget and rotating the screen the first time, the user can move the new widget to suit also the other orientation.

This would mean the user has to configure the homescreen for both orientations and might be a bit annoying if a lot of widgets are added in one go, but at least when adding only one I don't think this would bug me as a user too much.

Cons, from the top of my head:
* Width of widgets would be limited to 480 pixels, minus whatever padding is needed.
* Any animations on rotation would need some thought (the widgets wouldn't only rotate but also translate/move). Should be able to look fluid but at what computational cost I don't know.

An extension (not replacing the possibility for manual repositioning) might be to attempt some sort of semi-intelligent auto-repositioning of the widgets by the software. Probably a mess to get working well and the gain (getting a "good suggestion for positions in the other orientation") is probably not great. Note that this would not need to be triggered on every rotation, only when changes to the homescreen had been made.


Well, I tried.
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ysss is offline ysss
2009-09-26 , 13:29
Posts: 4,384 | Thanked: 5,524 times | Joined on Jul 2007 @ ˙ǝɹǝɥʍou
#44
I don't want the desktop to try to be too smart.

I'd rather if it lets the user choose if she wants the primary desktop to either be portrait or landscape, and focus on refining the display of that mode. The secondary mode will be the one with a quickfix 'icons reflow' treatment. It should also give the option to fix the desktop to a single orientation (either portrait or landscape).
 

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Corwin is offline Corwin
2009-09-26 , 13:32
Posts: 273 | Thanked: 113 times | Joined on Feb 2008 @ Germany
#45
BTW, four days ago I submitted a Brainstorm Idea regarding rotation support in the browser. This might be a lot easier to implement, as the UI-related problems are a lot less and does not include changing the whole device-UI. Because of that it might be more realistic to become true in the near future.

You can support the idea by voting for it here:
http://maemo.org/community/brainstor...reen_rotation/

24 Thumbs up, 0 thumbs down ATM!

Thanks,
Corwin
 

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nymajoak is offline nymajoak
2009-09-26 , 13:41
Posts: 199 | Thanked: 144 times | Joined on Sep 2009 @ gbg.se
#46
Originally Posted by Thor View Post
-The biggest problem here really is the desktop. The multitasking screen should be pretty straight forward as they are all windows of a fixed size. Just rotate and re-locate and that's done.
I think the multitasking screen might be tricky as well, as has been pointed out elsewhere (can't find the post right now). I don't remember the details right now but the windows are not just static screenshots of the apps, but dynamic. So when rotating the MT screen you have to switch all open apps to their other orientation. This might take a lot of resources (have no feeling for how demanding it would be, but a slow and laggy switch between orientations would be definite turn-off with an otherwise snappy device).

Also, all applications won't support both orientations (I think it would be a mistake to force them to, see below) which complicates it further. It might look a mess with windows in different orientations?

Originally Posted by Thor View Post
-Most applications will probably have to have a landscape and/or portrait UI. Is this how it is designed in the iPhone and Android phones? I'm not sure how the n97 one works as I don't have one, but I remember the home screen on my N82 does not rotate from portrait mode.
Personally I think it would be a mistake to force all applications to have support for both orientations. Besides increasing the load on app developers, I am pretty sure not all applications work "well" (as in being practical, intuitive, logical, usable etc) in both orientations.

But yes, there is in-built support for applications to have both orientations if I have understood it right. It's up to the developer.

Originally Posted by Thor View Post
-we can have a separate landscape and portrait homescreens/desktops but this would get confusing in everyday use if they all have different widgets/icons on them, essentially giving 8 homescreens.
I agree, with my proposal you probably could end up in situations when having two different arrangements of widgets in the two different orientations isn't enough to make them fit on the screen. So you would either have to live with the fact that some might overlap or have the possibility to have different amount of widgets on the two orientations, which essentially means two different versions of the homescreens. I think out of two bads the second option is the worst?

Originally Posted by Thor View Post
-One way to autorotate the desktop is to leave the resizing and require scrolling to get to the other side. This could apply in any application if autorotation is a requirement, but will leave "widescreen bars" at the top and bottom in portrait mode.
Noticed you suggested this elsewhere. Nice and simple, but personally I wouldn't like this. It would seem too much as an afterthought/homehack and I would prefer not to have rotation of the screen.

Originally Posted by Thor View Post
-Another way would be to allow resizing of widgets (probably manually by the user?) not just width but height as well, with word wrapped text, if it is updated dynamically. This will require vertical scrolling, but I think would be a great solution while keeping dynamic content.
That would probably help automatic treatment of the rotation, but I can imagine it would require a lot of thought and testing from widget designers and also support on OS-level?

Originally Posted by Thor View Post
-Another way would be to translate the landscape desktop to portrait mode using icons instead of dynamic widgets with a few excepts. I would think the likes of twitter, messenger IM, SMS, email icons would be similar to the blackberry. For example, when a new message arrives, put a star on the corner of the icon. It's very noticeable. Also, the number of unread messages can be listed next to it, such as 5 for 5 unread emails/IMs etc. This will end up with a bit more of an iPhone/Blackberry look, but will allow all icons to be on the portrait mode screen with no scrolling required. It would also assign a specific icon size and act as shortcuts to the main program. If you must see the dynamic content, tough, you will just have to access the program, or rotate to landscape mode. I think that could work.
Having square widgets/shortcuts etc (or rather forcing them to a grid with square slots) would solve the entire homescreen problem as far as I understand. Question is if it is worth the sacrifice. Without having used either blackberries, iphones, n97s or n900s I think I prefer the n900's homescreen system and wouldn't want to sacrifice the functionality. Also, it would mean redesigning the entire homescreen functionality and all widgets...

A quick disclaimer:
I am not a developer and have, as I said, no hands-on experience with touchscreen phones. All I write comes from trying to envision how I would like the device to behave..
Last edited by nymajoak; 2009-09-26 at 22:07. Reason: "Got" the eight homescreens bit...
 

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christexaport is offline christexaport
2009-09-26 , 13:45
Posts: 1,589 | Thanked: 720 times | Joined on Aug 2009 @ Arlington (DFW), Texas
#47
Originally Posted by JayOnThaBeat View Post
@chris

I must just be a very easy person to get along with.
...that you are. I thank you for it.

This forum / community was very welcoming to me, and has managed to help me with all of my problems.

I have a hard time believing that your users urged you to start a forum in response to how unfriendly / unhelpful this one was.
It wasn't all so much the rudeness as the lack of focus on the users, especially those that are new to linux and maemo but talented developers nonetheless. There is much interest in the N900, and it could easily become a phenomenon. We just extended our old forums to give them a temporary home for now. Too many complaints. Many of our members or VERY young talented hackers and coders. I'd hate to see 15 and 16 year olds subjected to this type of environment. But I have faith things will improve. I've noticed some of the old heads pointing out the same issues, so the leadership is there.

I think the regulars around here are great. In fact, there's only a very small handful of members that, when asked, I would say are jerks
so true

Also, mind you, I know far less about mobile devices than you do, of that I am sure.
Don't assume. Neither of us has used the N900 extensively, so we're both neophytes in that regard.

I just don't get the negative generalizations made about this community (most, it seems, from contributors to other tech sites)...
I'm too lazy for links right now, but yourself and ricky cadden to name two off the top of my head. (Not trying to start any sh*t, but it happened).

I'm just an end-user. But, I feel like I'm part of this community, and I try to help people with problems whenever I can (until I find a job anyway). So, by calling the community unhelpful or unfriendly, you are calling me unhelpful and unfriendly. And that hurts.
I think if the same sentiment is repeated by more than just me, perhaps there's something to what we're saying. I think its a matter of many of us coming from the Symbian world, having to hack and pwn our devices to get part of the versatility Maemoans enjoy daily. That open nature is taken for granted, as is the ability to write code and improve a device on your own, something that takes lots of education, practice, and skill.

Ricky Cadden is a great advocate for mobiles, and he lives near me. There's a reason he and others are the first to get called when new devices come around. The Symbian community is alot closer knit and helpful towards one another, and Maemo is a shock to the system in that light. We're all just learning to adjust, and we will in due time. The growing pains are just a little hard to bear.

You are a helpful person, and not all of this forum's members are a problem. Most aren't. But a bad apple can spoil the bunch. But good apples can influence the bad. Just keep being that good example. You and others are the reason I'm still here. I just have to learn patience. Things will improve, because I'm here to help it happen.
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christexaport is offline christexaport
2009-09-26 , 13:55
Posts: 1,589 | Thanked: 720 times | Joined on Aug 2009 @ Arlington (DFW), Texas
#48
Originally Posted by timsamoff View Post
Please do not throw offense at those who are not involved in your discussions here. If you have an issue with this forum, there is a "Report a Forum Bug" link on the right sidebar.

Thanks,
Tim
No offense intended. I thought some of the PTB acknowledged that site design was in flux and needed some improvements. As I understand it, the improvements are being worked on already. So I'm not tripping at all. I like the ideas and intended purpose of this community. Understand that. I'm here to help, that's all.

Originally Posted by JayOnThaBeat View Post
@chris

lemme get a login to maemo-freak, i want to see whats going on over there.
The site is still in beta, and not ready for the public. You can still see the forums, though, through the Symbian portal. It will be final soon, and I hope you come say hi and check us out. We welcome you.

Also, is there another forum skin available for symbian-freak? The color scheme hurts my brain.
I agree. LOL! Keep in mind, that is a legacy of the age of our site and the age group most of our readers are in. The SF layout will be updated soon. Thank goodness...I don't like it either, but its grown on me since its my home. Some readers don't want it changed because of sentiment.

Nvm, I guess thats just the main page... forum itself is good.
Wow! Thanks! Glad you like it.

I LOOOVE the banned-users list on s-f. Why don't we have one of those??
Hopefully we won't need one, but let's get back on topic. You can hit me via PM. I don't want to hog the forum.

Originally Posted by JayOnThaBeat View Post
We need some red on yellow color-scheming as an option... http://www.symbian-freak.com

It's all the rage!
You know it! LOL!
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christexaport is offline christexaport
2009-09-26 , 14:11
Posts: 1,589 | Thanked: 720 times | Joined on Aug 2009 @ Arlington (DFW), Texas
#49
@nymajoak,
I came up with a similar scheme to rotate the widgets and animate them to their new location. Check my solution at #5 on the brainstorm, and if it fits what you're saying, by all means vote for it! I think its perfect, as long as the GPU isn't taxed by all of the transition animation it may require.

Thor, you have many ideas! PLEASE submit some as solutions on this brainstorm.
http://maemo.org/community/brainstor..._in_fremantle/
You've obviously given it some thought. Maybe you can help us with some fresh ideas, or give us feedback on ours.

@ysss,
What did you think of our solutions on the brainstorm? Too much? Don't you think it is an improvement?

@YoDude,
We can't keep up this back and forth here. This isn't the place. PM me. I'll give you my Google Voice number and we can talk on the phone like men and stop this bickering. Its not conducive to anything here. You and I both know better. Let's just let it go, ok? I'm pretty much done, but I'm willing to have a mature conversation on the phone with you if you like. Just too busy right now, and its taking away from progress on this thread.
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Last edited by christexaport; 2009-09-26 at 16:43.
 

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nymajoak is offline nymajoak
2009-09-26 , 14:28
Posts: 199 | Thanked: 144 times | Joined on Sep 2009 @ gbg.se
#50
Originally Posted by christexaport View Post
@nymajoak,
I came up with a similar scheme to rotate the widgets and animate them to their new location. Check my solution at #5 on the brainstorm, and if it fits what you're saying, by all means vote for it! I think its perfect, as long as the GPU isn't taxed by all of the transition animation it may require.
Ah. I have checked both brainstorms on the topic before but missed your recent addition. Yes, barring a few details my idea is essentially the same as yours.
 
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